In this episode, we join Pillow Scholar Theresa Ruth Howard in conversation with Lourdes Lopez on the occasion of her tenth anniversary as artistic director of Miami City Ballet.
In this episode, we join Pillow Scholar Theresa Ruth Howard in conversation with Lourdes Lopez on the occasion of her tenth anniversary as artistic director of Miami City Ballet.
The entire talk can be experienced here: PillowTalk: Celebrating Lourdes Lopez
*This episode was produced by Lisa Niedermeyer.
[Music begins, composed by J.S. Bach, performed by Jess Meeker]
NORTON OWEN: Welcome to PillowVoices, a production of Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival with content from the Pillow archives. I'm Norton Owen the Pillow’s Director of Preservation, and it's my pleasure to bring you excerpts of a 2022 PillowTalk entitled “Celebrating Lourdes Lopez.” We join Pillow Scholar Theresa Ruth Howard in conversation with Ms. Lopez on the occasion of her tenth anniversary as Artistic Director of Miami City Ballet.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Let’s jump to your entering the field of artistic directorship. Now, I did a talk, I mentioned it, “Ballet is Woman,” with like I think five female artistic directors and not a one of them ever thought about being an artistic director themselves. Think about that. It was Lourdes, Tamara Rojo, Virginia Johnson, Susan Jaffe, Wendy Whelan. Not, none of them ever thought of it. And it was somebody else that had to sort of like prompt and say, you know you can do that. And so can you talk about how you enter that space?
LOURDES LOPEZ: Um Well it was a Miami City Ballet Board of Directors that decided I could do it. I you know, I don't know, I never, I didn't have a role model in front of me. I didn't. I only had men. All of my, most of my teachers, my beloved teachers, were female. No one ever said to me you know do you think that you could or would you have an interest? That was never…I don't know, I don't know that it was spoken about. It just wasn't. There was, the world that I grew up in, if you were female, when you stopped dancing you either got married and moved on, or you started your own little ballet school and you started teaching or you taught at a university. But you know really running a ballet company as an artistic director was just nothing… something that never entered my mind. I think, you know when I think back on my life it seems that everything that I've done, from stepping off the stage at the age of 39 has somehow taught me aspects of what an artistic director needs. And the greatest lesson was really starting Morphoses with Christopher Wheeldon, though that didn't quite work out, I was, I understood right the…what I call the back office of a ballet company and the front office of a ballet company you know, and then you just I don't know but…
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Lourdes here's the thing. When I was researching and looking and drawing the line through. You're like overqualified. You were overqualified to be an artistic director quite frankly. Having held…No no no. The career that you had, the ballets that you danced, right, the the people that you worked with, not only starting a company, being an executive director, you probably had more skills and knowledge about business and how organizations run than the average white man who gets that role. Straight up and real, that's just true. That's true. And it's important to not minimize that because walking in there with your career and the added knowledge um that's not…
LOURDES LOPEZ: Well here I mean I joke about it now, but you're absolutely right. The…when I got the job at Miami City Ballet in September 2012, of all the interviews that I did, and I did a lot of interviews because it was the you know, in the press and the way that the whole process took place the transition took place was a bit of a nightmare. Not one person asked me, “What does it feel like to be a female artistic director?” Zero. The question was, “What is it like…oh you're taking after Edward? How do you think that's going to feel?” I mean “what are you going to do? He did this, he did that…” and I think back now 10 years later where everyone's asking me, “Well Lourdes, what does it feel like to be a female artistic director?” I've been doing this for 10 years! Where have you been? So yes, so now it's at the forefront of all of our minds which is absolutely right, like so many things are at the forefront of our minds. But I…it was such a courageous step for the Miami City Ballet board in 2012 to hire a Latina who had no experience. Yes I had the pedigree, I had the pedigree and yes I had the intelligence…
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: But Lourdes that's really generally the criteria. That, up until now, that has been the criteria for artistic directors, period. Being a, having a name, being a star, generally the company that you came through, it's all pedigree it has nothing to do with experience or even vision, really. It's about how you can raise money and like maybe, curate.
LOURDES LOPEZ: Then it's the perception that only men can raise money, and there you go.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: And should be in power and because ballet, correct. There we go, now we solved it.
LOURDES LOPEZ: Boy were they wrong.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: The other thing that was really interesting to me that you said was that you were surprised at how much power the artistic director had, right? Okay this is a decade ago right so I'm interested like you you're like you know you say you want red they give you red.
LOURDES LOPEZ: I said that to you? Yea that's the example I always use.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Yeah you said that you were like, it was like, you know like a little crazy, and that you, when you came in were questioning yourself and you wanted to like, how has your leadership evolved over a decade you're coming in and you're you're sort of uncertain you're…this is a new idea of being in a position of “I am the decider,” right, to a decade later where clearly you've established yourself. How has your leadership evolved over this decade?
LOURDES LOPEZ: I'm not so sure that it's evolved all that much. So my when I very first walked into Miami City Ballet it was a very very…I can talk about it now, very tense environment. Nobody knew me, I had really no relationship to that company. It's not a company that I took class with or I grew up around. Like I said, the transition was very difficult. It was played out in the press and I walked into a building, a building I didn't know, I mean I didn't know where the bathrooms were. And I was heading not only the company but the school. So I, you know, every once in a while, I make very smart decisions. And I decided that I was going to walk into Miami City Ballet and I was going to ask people, first of all to help. Second of all, to explain what the company was about, how does it work, you know who's who, what what, what is the rep, I mean I just started asking questions. I remember having a meeting with the dancers and I said I'm here to make this happen but I need your help because I can't do it on my own because I don't know this. And it was really I think it was the smartest thing that I did, walking in and saying I need your help and in a funny way though now I'm much more confident about the decisions that I make. I'm still doing that. I mean I just had an hour, you saw me, I had an hour and a half meeting with Roma saying I need you to look at this casting and I need someone to talk about it. Because I'm not god, I'm not omnipotent you know. It's important to hear other people's views, other ideas you know, when people say something, it makes me think differently. So you know I enjoy that camaraderie that I have with those around me to question and even question me. What was funny about when I walked in is that I would say you know, I would say, I don't know I think it should be a red costume and then all of a sudden “She wants a red costume! She wants a red costume!” and I was so not used to that in my life, you know. So you have to be very careful when you…
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Yes. Yeah…that idea of asking questions at a level of humility in saying that even though I'm at the top of the hierarchy, I'm not infallible. Like I don't know everything. And the idea that it's a “we” and “us,” not an “I,” even if people are treating you like it's the “I.” It’s really interesting to think about, especially now as we're going through this shift. And speaking of that shift. Wait. Hold on, let me go back. So Miami City Ballet, when you inherited it, was it a stable organization, or not? It's just a question, I'm going somewhere with this.
LOURDES LOPEZ: Toby, you want to answer this question?
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Oh my god Toby! Are you Toby? [Laugher]
LOURDES LOPEZ: Yes that's Toby, our founder.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Nice to meet you. I’ve been talking about you all week only in the best of ways. Well do you want to…Would you like to say?
NORTON OWEN: And now Theresa brings the microphone to a member of the audience, Miami City Ballet’s co-founder, Toby Lerner Ansin, so that she can answer directly.
TOBY LERNER ANSIN: It was extremely difficult, people didn't understand why it was happening. I would have to say to them if the people that founded this company that put not only a lot of money into it, but hours and hours of their time, feel it's something to be done, it has to be done. Take a big breath and let's see what happens, but let's give it a chance. Because we love this company, we want it to survive. And I trust that we have picked and we did the perfect person with a vision and growing experience to lead the company. And this is the proof of the pudding that we're here for this glorious week.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: So this…I asked that question because, you know, have you heard about the glass ceiling? [Laughter] Okay all the women are like, yes. So it's the idea that oftentimes women don't get opportunities of leadership until organizations are on that glass cliff and so, right? So that if it fails then it's clearly the woman's fault, forget how we got to the cliff. And I think we're seeing that in a number play out in a number of different spaces not just with women but specifically with people of color now because there's a rush to put people of color into these positions and oftentimes they're in organizations that are teetering. So we have to watch that, be mindful, and so Toby, to your point, ten years later, right, the strength of the company, and they look incredible
LOURDES LOPEZ: Thank you.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: They look incredible and so kudos to you.
LOURDES LOPEZ: Thank you [Applause].
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Going back to my thread of the idea that these dancers, I call them the species. This generation is so vastly different from generations before. And rightfully so. You know we've got the we got the interwebs, we've got the Instagram, where you know before you'd have to ask, you know the press person, to speak to a dancer and now they have their own agents and you know sliding into the DMs. They want more information, they want more agency, they want to be more involved, so they say, sometimes you know. But, how are you dealing with that in terms of because that is a definite shift from who you were as a dancer and now you know even a decade has changed so much so how are you dealing with this new sort of like breed of dancer?
LOURDES LOPEZ: You know, the word agency is really interesting. So I've always felt that as a dancer dancing for Mr. Balanchine he gave me tremendous agency. So here are the steps, this is where you have to be, but I just really want to see what Lourdes is going to do with it. And so I think that empowers a dancer tremendously but I just wanted to put that out there. Right now I am totally for the social media, I’m very pro understanding that they have their own ways of looking at their careers that they have they want to go to school which is fantastic, or they want to get married whatever, it is I'm totally on board with that. Once they enter the studio and once they enter the theater, I hate to say it, it's my world. And it is… it's not a dictatorship, right, but is there is a responsibility that I have or that I feel to the dance that is being danced on the stage, to the dancer that is dancing that dance. And it's not it's not like you make these decisions you know not unilaterally on my own, but let me just give you an example. I started noticing last season that our dancers and female dancers were making a lot of noise on stage with their point shoes and I waited and waited and I kept debating how do I do this in a way for them because I think you have to be generous I think you have to be thoughtful and I think you have to be respectful those days of of pushing someone over being nasty are done and it's not and it's not something that I ever even when I had teachers that did that with me I never appreciated it. I felt that there was no reason for it. But I was debating should I bring it up should I not bring it up and finally I called them I called the girls before performance of Diamonds in Naples in Miami and I said you know I just have to tell you this I am responsible for Diamonds. That that responsibility has been given to me and you're ruining it because I hear every single step. And I said it very nicely, I said so I'm here to help you talk to me Lourdes is what did you do with your shoes? Whatever you need from me, you know, more shoes, whatever it is talk to me. All I need to do is not hear you on the stage and the girls, to their benefit, the ladies, to their benefit, took it to heart. Because I had presented in a way of saying I am making you look better. I need to make this ballet look better. And I need your help in doing that. So I think, Theresa, there's a way of having these conversations, they're not easy conversations, you know, especially when you have a dancer who is in a funky place in their career and which happens, emotionally not there or physically, whatever it is. I think communication is critical, it's critical and it's something. You know I look back and I always think, I wish I had spoken to Mr. Balanchine more. I wish I had been braver. So many times that I would have just because he was there for us right. But I was just nervous because he was, you know, Balanchine. But I think communication is critical, I think when you explain to artists why you're doing what you're doing. That it is for the art form and it is for you. That's where I kind of draw the line and that's why I say it, you've entered now my world.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: So like it’s the idea of transparency and I think that this is where the concept of agency for this generation comes in, is the idea that there is an expectation that I should know. And it does come from the idea that we know way too much about everything, right, like people are oversharing to a degree. But then there's the idea that a lot of the things, the not so good things, happen in the dark and it happened because we didn't know and it happened because people wouldn't say. And so there is this intro…we're in this brackish water where we're trying to find that balance between, how do you lead a company and take that responsibility, because it falls on your shoulders, right? But also creates, I suppose, a collaborative space. And when I say collaborative, I mean like the holding of the organization. Like Arthur Mitchell used to say, you represent something larger than yourself. And buy in so that everybody is taking care of the company for themselves. And it's a hard space, I mean I do not envy you or the other leaders, because it is…it's really almost like a fingerprint. There's no blanket way to do it across organizations because it's all about the people in the organization.
LOURDES LOPEZ: It is about the people but I also think it's about the vision right. And so why are we here? It's a vision that people buy into. I say and it's a mission and a reason for being and then you have to have the individuals around you that are you know. It's like the dancers, they all look different, but they're all kind of on that same road moving forward. And it's the same thing with staff, you know, it's I think it takes a tremendous amount of trust and saying “This is what we want to be. Alright, is everybody on board? Yes we are. Okay.” So everyone has to do their job and you know sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but that's just that's just life. You just keep on going because you so believe in the end, if there is an end result, you so believe in it.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: So let's talk about vision. 2022. I'm going to give you 10 more years, I don't know if you want 10 more years [Laughter] Let's just hypothetically, What is your vision for the company moving forward? What is it that you either haven't accomplished or what would you like to begin to investigate for Miami City Ballet moving into the future?
LOURDES LOPEZ: I use the word vision loosely because I don't you know when people say “oh well you know my I take inspiration from or my vision” it's like I go please give me a break you know you're we're we're doing that ballet because people come in okay so let's just go you know this is the business [Laughter] it's a business side of it. I think that what there's there's so much that I’m proud of at Miami City Ballet and I think that the one thing that I have not accomplished that I am now focusing on is really a closer we've started we've started connecting with our community really a lot more and it feels wonderful and I think in a very generous and a very honest and I think in a very real way. Where I'd love it to go is I'd love for the company to focus on Latin and South America, because I feel that it's a region, obviously because I'm close to it, but I think it's a region that is struggling right now, economically and politically. I think it's a region that many are not necessarily focused on, I think it's a region that we can connect and really you know…Virginia actually during this whole COVID and we were getting together and I remember I called Virginia up and I said I need to talk to you because I need to understand how can I, how do…everybody talks about community and everybody talks about connecting to, how do I do this? And Virginia said to me, and I'll never forget, “Focus on the people around you.” She said you can't change the world, just focus first on the people around you. And I think that's what we did, especially during the COVID years, Miami City Ballet really, we kind of leaned in and said you know we're here to help you. And it felt great in it all of a sudden it opened up a world for us. I'd like to do something similar with Latin and South America, and I think we could. I'm sorry to interrupt, I just think that given where we are geographically you know, the gateway to the Americas, given how removed I know those dancers in Latin and South America feel. And those directors have such little access to what's going on in American dance. They want it, they want to understand what your their neighbors are doing. And so that's one area that I keep in the back of my head going, how do I, you know, how do I do this? How do we get the company and that foot in the door?
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: I have a question because the word community is very interesting because how we define community is really specific and so having just been down in Miami um and learning that there are multiple communities down there…and so are you saying that like Miami City Ballet is the community for for Miami City Ballet is more the Latine or…and does that include the Afro-Latine? Because there’s…that’s a whole like the morass of what that means to say the Latin America. Does that make sense?
LOURDES LOPEZ: Yes, I know what you are saying. So when I say community for Miami City Ballet within South Florida I am talking about the people around us. So I am not distinguishing or marginalizing whether they are Latina, Latinos, Afro-Cubans, Afro-Mexicans. It is who are the people who live here in South Florida that Miami City Ballet through what it puts on the stage, through its community engagement programs, through its schools, through the services, the artistic services that we provide: how do we change those lives? I mean that’s how, when I think of community, that’s the word, I mean, that’s where I go. I am not going to a specific area or neighborhood. Though we do, we do that. But my issue is broader. And that’s how I feel about Latin and South America that, you know, it’s a bigger problem.
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Yeah I mean it…when I think about it…it’s the idea of what is…what are we really talking about? Because the idea of Miami: there is Little Haiti, there is Little Bohemia, and how does that…wait let me go back…but I understand what you are saying, I understand because I come out of dancing from Harlem and so the question is I am looking for a bit of Brown-ness always, and so wherever it comes from that is one of the things. But I think everybody is…not everybody, that’s not true. But I think that is the question right, when we are talking about ballet in 2022 and moving forward…and is that vision, does that vision encompass that?
LOURDES LOPEZ: No no. So it’s really interesting…and I understand that you are looking at Brown-ness. I totally get it. Um I am looking at it from the belief that what this art form can do? Because of what it did for me. So I don’t care what race you are, I don’t care what color you are, and I don’t care where you came from. I am only telling you that this, what we do, what you saw on stage, if it’s done at a very high level, and if it’s done well, and if you put works on stage that reach people…Good is good, right? You can’t…you’re gonna impact a life regardless of um you know ballet…I can’t even say dance. Ballet has changed, I mean everyday of my life changes because of this art form and so I think that’s how I…. that’s what I want when I say community: How do I bring the ballet to them?
THERESA RUTH HOWARD: Thank you for that.
[Music begins, composed and performed by Jess Meeker]
NORTON OWEN: That’s it for this episode of PillowVoices. Thank you for joining us today. You can find the entire PillowTalk with Lourdes Lopez at watch.jacobspillow.org, and learn more about Lopez’s upbringing by Cuban parents and her stellar performance career. On behalf of Jacob’s Pillow we look forward to sharing more dance with you through the films, essays, and podcasts at DanceInteractive.jacobspillow.org and of course through live experiences during our Festival and throughout the year. Special thanks to the National Endowment for the Arts for helping launch this podcast series. Please subscribe to PillowVoices wherever you get your podcasts and visit us soon, either online or onsite.