What could representation and opportunity for Hip Hop dance look like in the near future? Guest host Michele Byrd-McPhee revisits the 2023 conversation during PillowTalk: Hip Hop at 50, to build upon and expand into what is possible for the next 50 years.
What could representation and opportunity for Hip Hop dance look like in the near future? Guest host Michele Byrd-McPhee revisits the 2023 conversation during PillowTalk: Hip Hop at 50, to build upon and expand into what is possible for the next 50 years.
Interstitial music for this episode is from the live performance Hip Hop Across the Pillow as well as the All Styles Dance Battle event in 2023. Music: Darrin Ross, d. Sabela grimes ("All Goodness In," performed and written by Usual Rucker).
Additional film and video from Hip Hop Across the Pillow can be found at: https://watch.jacobspillow.org/category/videos/hip-hop-across-the-pillow
https://www.ladiesofhiphop.com/
[Piano music begins, composed by J.S. Bach, performed by Jess Meeker]
Norton Owen: Welcome to PillowVoices, a production of Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival, with content from the Pillow Archives. I'm Norton Owen, the Pillow's Director of Preservation, and it's my pleasure to introduce our host for this episode, Michele Byrd- McPhee. As founder of the dance collective known as Ladies of Hip Hop, Byrd-McPhee has established a home for street and club dance forms by opening New York's only woman-owned and woman-focused Hip Hop center.
Ladies of Hip-Hop was part of our “50 Years of Hip Hop” celebration in 2023, and in this episode, we revisit a Pillow Talk with scholar in residence Dr. Imani K. Johnson in conversation with Byrd-McPhee, Buddha Stretch, and Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: Hello, audience. This is Michele. I'm so excited to be here on PillowVoices with the opportunity to revisit and expand on this amazing conversation and to give more thought to hip hop culture beyond 50 years. Um, exploring what does real opportunity and support look like? opportunities we actually need? And talking a bit more about the Me Too movement and its intersection with hip hop culture.
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: We have Michele Byrd-McPhee (audience claps), aka Lady Byrd. Michele is the founder and executive director of Ladies of Hip-Hop, a nonprofit organization empowering girls and women through hip hop culture and the arts, and artistic director of its dance collective. Michele has earned her B. S. from Temple University and an M.S. in Nonprofit Arts Management from Drexel University. She's worked many years as a production coordinator at Brooklyn Academy of Music and then a senior music coordinator at Late Night with Seth Meyers. She currently teaches marketing for the arts and arts advocacy at Texas Tech University and also serves as a Bessie Award Committee member. And on top of that, also teaches “Intro to Hip Hop Dance” at NYU Steinhardt School. Most recently though, in partnership with Snipes USA, Michele opened New York's only woman-led, woman-owned, and woman-focused arts space dedicated to street and club dance forms (audience claps). She has been working for decades to recontextualize spaces and conversations about hip hop culture among gender, sex, cultural, socio-historical, and racial lines.
Next to me is Buddha Stretch (Audience: Woo!) Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, with four siblings, Stretch was influenced by his dad, Emilio Austin Sr., who danced as a youth and provided Stretch with discipline, inspiration, support, and motivation that guided him throughout his career. Stretch's dance style, known as freestyle hip hop, draws from all aspects of hip hop culture, music and dances, which he helped to popularize during the early days of hip hop music videos and live shows. He met the members of his first dance crew, MOPTOP, at an audition for a video they booked for Diana Ross’ single, Working Overtime, eventually forming a crew after clubbing together at The Tunnel. And then later forming Elite Force Crew. So his first choreography job was for Joeski Love, the song Pee Wee Dance, rest in peace Paul Reubens. And he went on to work on many videos including Will Smith's Men in Black, Gettin Jiggy With It and Miami videos, for which he was nominated for two MTV Music Awards for Best Choreography. And Michael Jackson's Remember the Time video, his most memorable experience and still one of my favorite music videos of all time (audience claps). An emcee and a writer himself, he recorded an underground hit called It Don't Matter by Ten Thieves and continues to make music today. He DJ'd the Battle last night (audience claps). Welcome Buddha Stretch.
And then, finally, last but certainly not least, Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia, also known as La Roka. She is a New York City based dancer, teacher, and advocate for women in hip hop. Named by Latina Magazine as, quote, one of the most iconic b girls in hip hop history, unquote. Rokafella teaches workshops, roots, history, and technique of hip hop alongside hosting breaking sessions throughout New York City since 1997. As an educator, she has been an adjunct professor at the New School and a dance instructor at New Jersey Performing Arts Center. Rokafella is also known for her choreography and direction. Her dance work, Beauty Meets Beast, explores the duality of women in street club dance and her documentary, All the Ladies Say, which I show in my classes annually, highlights the lives and influential work of b girls. An interdisciplinary artist, Rokafella is also a model, a vocalist, and poet, and recently appeared in the film, In the Heights.
My name is Dr. Imani Kai Johnson, Associate Professor of Critical Dance Studies and Black Studies at UC Riverside, and Scholar in Residence for the week.
I want to focus our conversation on the historicization of hip hop dances that falls out of the kind of 50th anniversary narrative. Specifically, I'm thinking about the ways that each of you had made forays into and helped to innovate the ways that hip hop can live on different kind of cultural and institutional platforms, including television, stage, music videos, and long standing institutions like the Pillow, all of which require different kinds of labor in translating these forms. And so I'm wondering just to begin. Would you mind introducing yourselves beyond the blurb and share a bit of your history as it dovetails with or departs from the history that's being lauded now in 2023?
Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia: I grew up in East Harlem and then we moved to the Bronx. It was a lot of exchange, social exchange, whether it was at a sweet 16, a wedding, a birthday, any reason to party. Because my family loved to celebrate Fridays and Saturdays. Uh, our apartment would transform into the Copa Cabana (audience laughs). Furniture would disappear into I don't know whose bedroom. But the living room was lit. And so we had to music, musicians would just pop up, congas, guitar, what have you, and the exchange would happen generationally. So auntie would, you know, would, would dance with her neighbors, and then the little ones, myself included, jump in to see what that was all about. And so I think that I always saw the social exchange, I, I also saw generational dialogue. It wasn't foreign to me. So when hip hop started to emerge, and I saw circles. I have to say that first it was the guys that I witnessed, but I didn't feel like I wasn't allowed. I didn't feel like I couldn't go in there. But when it was a floor move exchange, I, I couldn't maneuver my body so I had to wait and see and watch. And so, um, there were boundaries and there was a respect for what was going on in there. Um, and so I waited, I waited and yet I, I desired to be that powerful, that aggressive and that confident. I wanted to be what I saw there. And so in time, as the trend changed, then I could participate. You know, then I could, and I feel like it was like the Daisy Duke, the WAP, the Running Man, the Mary J. Blige moment, you know, Fly Girls. Then, you know, the uptown styles. Okay, now I can jump in and I feel like I can also be a part of the conversation.
When I started seeing music videos, then things were a little more choreographed. Things, you know, whenever I went to audition, a lot of times I didn't make those auditions. But I knew I could dance, but I didn't make those auditions. And so, um, there was already something, uh, happening that was outside of, um, my knowledge and I, I wasn't privy to directors, casting producers. I just thought, Hey, I can dance. Put me in, you know, pay me (audience laughs). Um, yeah. That's what we all wanted. And so a lot of my peers who either were in there longer or knew somebody were getting in. And so I was seeing people in the music videos and I was like, how do I get in? How do I get in? And so I feel like the freestyle, the circle, the improvisational part of hip hop dance still, it still isn't valued or it isn't prominent. Most of the stuff that everybody sees is choreography behind an artist, which is beautiful. It helps the song. It helps the artists, you know, for presentation. But in the underground, on the block, in the hood, at the parties, we are challenging each other to see what you got. What do I got compared to what you got? And we elevate each other. So I just want to put out there that freestyle is such an important part of what we do. And yet, it just, people haven't figured out, um, how to just let it be, just trust, just, you know, let the camera roll and let me do what I, what we do, um, and we will have magic, you will see the magic, just, just trust.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: I'm going to just add on to, and kind of build from where Rock started a base, I think, like she said, everything we have done within the culture started in family and in community, and I think bringing that to these institutions and to this, and to this stage, I think, you know, I want to push back. I'm trying to push back and have us not just be bodies moving for entertainment. And it's great. We're at the Pillow, we're at these places, but we are people, we have families, we have emotion. And I feel like being able to bring all of that, like who you are as a person and all the things that we experience good and bad to the stage and not just kind of take on all of these engagements for the sake of entertaining people. I want to change, I think, that expectation. I think hip hop dance in concert dance spaces has a box and we cannot get outside of that. They want to see you flip all day. You know, that's the only thing that is applauded. And so the one thing that I think I want to see embraced because I'm not, we're already doing it. It's not that we're trying to do it. We have to be embraced in these spaces that you're new to us because we're not new to this. You know, we, we perform wherever, whether it's in our house, whether it's in our living room, on the street, wherever, like in, I have a video of my son and his best friend when they were like seven and eight And we're in a store and they had a whole, the Nae Nae, the, it was the Nae Nae and the Whip, a whole combination happening in the store while I'm shopping (audience laughs). And I just stood back and like recorded it. And, and so what we do, we do wherever we, whatever space we have. But as we move into these institutionalized spaces, we have to be able to bring ourselves. And so like, I'm asking for that space. I'm not asking for it. I'm taking that space.
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: Yeah.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: I'm going to move it to Stretch.
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: Yeah (audience claps). And Stretch, as somebody who made, who's made those forays into music videos, who kind of, yeah, laid the groundwork for the kind of choreography that eventually becomes so commonplace. Yeah. What, what was that experience for you?
Buddha Stretch: Um, to put it bluntly, we. We brought the culture to the artist, instead of trying to adapt the artist to the culture. We made them fit into the culture and understand it and, you know, show and live through the culture for their work. Not shaped it so it would work for them, but make them work for the culture. And I think that needs to be the focal point of everything that we do in hip hop culture. Bring the culture to the forefront, force feed the people who don't understand it. They'll get it. Because it's universal. And it's just like, like dance and music. Dance and music is numbers. Everyone understands numbers. Whatever language you speak, whatever culture you're in, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, is the same. The culture is based in that. Everybody can digest it. Everybody can understand it. You don't need someone to explain it. It's self-explanatory. All you have to do is close your eyes, open your heart, and feel what's in front of you.
I never booked an audition. I did the auditions (audience laughs). Yeah, the first time I went for an audition, it was for the Dance Theater of Harlem. And, uh, when we got there, it's like from the movie Breaking. We had our sweatsuits on and sneakers, hats. And we came in and everyone was in, uh, you know, tutus and, and leotards. And they looked at us like we were crazy and my dad was like, Let's go. And he just snatched us up and said, this is not for you. You have to make your own way. And that was the focal point from there on in. It's like, okay, I don't fit into this box. I'll make my own, but it's not a box. It's a cipher. And it's, it's, if I split it in two and twist it, it's infinite. I'll draw everyone into that and there's nowhere else for them to go. And that was the idea behind the culture going in and making the people choose us, making them understand and watch us, not asking, but just showing up and be like, you need this in your life and you know it, let's go (audience claps). The negotiation starts now. You want me to do this? You have to pay me. There's a value to what I do. That's the number one thing that my dad taught myself and my entire crew. If you do not value what you do, why would someone else? So we walked in and we were like, Yeah, we can do whatever you ask as long as you sign on the dotted line and you pay this fee. And we're good. And it was always business first, because my dad told us talent is only 10%. And you guys are ultra-talented. But that mean that was meaningless to him. He was like, I know 100 talented people. What makes you different?
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: So a lot of people are experiencing these opportunities to attend hip hop events because of the attention around the 50th anniversary. Um, and a lot of people are experiencing these things for the first time. In that framework, what do you feel is missing from the way that gets historicized, whether that's from pers- like, aspects of your personal history or dimensions of hip hop, like hip hop on stage, for example. What do we know of the historicization of hip hop on stage? What do you feel is missing?
Buddha Stretch: The dance. The dance. Everything that you hear about the 50th anniversary of hip hop is rap. And it's nice, but before those rappers were famous, we were dancing. And we got those rappers famous because we danced to their music. And the DJs broke their music to the people before music videos in the clubs. And if we didn't dance, they didn't play that song. So you know, the dance is as big a part as the music. The dance is what explains the music to people who don't understand it. It's nonverbal communication, and that never gets mentioned, as Rok said, the freestyle part, they always bring up Breaking. And I love it. I'm a b boy. I started with breaking, but, we've moved, you know, it's grown. How about the rest of the time after the 80s? What about the late 80s and the 90s and the 2000s and the 2010s? Like Michele said, the Whip and the Nae Nae. I know an entire generation of dancers that grew up with those two steps. They know nothing about the 80s. They don't know anything about MTV. They don't know anything about anything. Music videos. But they know the whip and the Nae Nae. But that doesn't get mentioned in the 50th anniversary of hip hop.
Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia: If we are counting back to 1973, rap wasn't happening.
Buddha Stretch: There was no rap yet.
Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia: It wasn't happening the way y'all know it. The party that, that flyer that says 1973, August 11th, um, there was DJing happening. Because Kool Herc clearly had to have known how to DJ in order to be DJing and promoting his flyer. So DJing was definitely happening. Dance was happening. Dance was happening. And so for rap to be the only thing that gets prominence this year is, is a lie. Because the first rap song according to Sha Rock, did not happen until 1978. The first rap song recorded on to the radio, ‘78. So if we're talking ‘73, there's something missing there. And as, as Stretch said, we need to be able to highlight and feature the history of the dance. And so before the 1984 movies. Which we all know and love, Beat Street, and Breaking, and even Wild Style, and even Style Wars. Before that, dance is happening. There's a whole generation that predates the ones that, uh, ended up getting the Hollywood, uh, spotlight. And so there's so much, Imani, that we have to peel back and, and share with the world so that those people aren't forgotten. And as in your opening speech, you had said, some of those, uh, innovators have passed. They've passed. And then some of the ones that are still around, they're a little resentful and they're a little hurt. And, and, you know, justifiably so, because they were just forgotten about. And only the people who showed up in the movies, you know, they were the ones who got a lot, a lot of leverage from, from that appearance. Those appearances.
So, there's a lot of history to be shared, and also to know that, as Stretch said, like, everything kept moving. Things kept moving and for us not to bring light to that, to not have those dance styles on stage, those innovators to come and be with us at these festivals, it's a job, it's a task, I, I, I take it on, you know, Kwikstep and I try our best to feature and highlight a lot of the people that we saw, that we were inspired by, to our stages, to our discussions, to our workshops, so that a few of the new generation can say, Oh yeah, I met,. I met Dancing Doug, or I met Sha-Rock, or I met Grand Wizzard Theodore, the inventor of the scratch. So, just if each of us in our circles, which we are doing, are able to disseminate some of this information, then it, there's hope. There's hope, and so I always say, you know, a toast to the next 50, because this first 50 has been amazing. It has been amazing, and we're in the positions that we are because of the tenacity that we all embody, and the resilience, because I can tell you doors have been closed so many times on me. Kwikstep and I trying to do theater, the theater world saying, no, because you didn't, you don't have that PhD, so you don't know what the name of a light is and I'm like just tell me the name of the light and I'll memorize it (audience laughs). What is it? Boom? shins? What is it? Yeah, got you. And the next time I put it in the tech rider. I'm a quick study.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: If you really think about it and break down, rap is the music, emcee is the person right? And emcee did what moved the crowd. So again, I think we just in this 50 year anniversary need to really, uh, dig deeper. And also in terms of rap music, what you are, what you see, what, what, what's being celebrated for the most part is just, like, surface level of what we do, right? There's some emcees that have been around since the very beginning and have, uh, it, it's a craft, it's a skill. Some of the most talented emcees are, are, are, around or, you know, still doing it. And I think some of them are definitely like, I mean, I saw a Rock M Duo show the other day and I was like, yes, you know, like, it's so great to see that. But I think folks just. have to not take what's on the surface and that's what is scary about what's being celebrated is that it's just like a bunch of famous people just giving each other props and not really giving the culture props.
Buddha Stretch: I'd like to point out and quote great Mr. Wiggles. The culture started because the DJ was playing music for the dancers. That's how it started. There was no rap Kool Herc was spinning the brakes and extending the break to keep the dancers dancing. What part of that is not the focal point of 50 years of hip hop? The dance should be at the focal point. It explains the music. And you know, most of your favorite rappers were dancers at one point. They got into the culture from the dance, not from the raps.
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: Tell me a story about a moment, a deciding moment, either that made hip hop palpable for you as a career choice or that you decided or you realized. This was going to continue on you all seem to have moments where it was not necessarily a certainty at a certain point. So when does it become that? Tell us a story.
Buddha Stretch: Oh for me, it's my very first gig where I actually got paid, got paid recurringly (laughs). I got hired to dance in a nightclub called Union Square that I used to pay for to get in every week. And when they asked, they told me they wanted me to dance. And the guys, they hired my friends and my friends. I didn't go the night that they decided to hire the dancers. And my friends called me and they're like, come to the club on Monday. And I'm like, the club's not open on Monday. Why would I go to the club on Monday? Just show up at the club on Monday. I get to the club and like, we, they, they want to pay us to perform. And I'm like, pay us to perform? Where? on the stage? I'm like, yeah. And they call him. They, they call him. came and they were like, Yeah, you know, they said they needed you. You're the choreographer. And I'm like, Oh, I am. OK, we're going to pay you guys each week to perform. You're going to open up for every act and you get free drinks. You get a guest list and you get paid. And I'm like, Wait, stop. You're going to pay me to come in this club to dance that I used to pay you for (audience laughs). Now you're going to pay me. I get in free. I get free drinks and I got a guest list. Really? And they're like, yes, really. You know, they said, you are the most important. You got to put the show together. I'm like, okay. And from that point on, it was like, I can make a living from this. I'm getting paid from this. Like, wow. And then of course I went home, told my dad and he yelled at me and he was like, uh, you know, what are you doing? Why are you so you're taking this lightly? Like, this is what you want to do. Do it. all out or don't do it at all. If you want this to actually work, you've got to put in the work. You can't go to the club now and just dance like you danced before. You got to dance to the next level. And he was adamant about that. It was like, if you really want to do this, go either go hard or go home. And that was the point for me. Like, okay, And the very next Friday I had our first show and from that point on I've been doing this ever since.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: For me it was seeing people like Rok and Kwik and Buddha Stretch and I, Ihad this moment like so I started my, my company right after I got out of undergrad because I did get one of those like local R& B acts. I got a video, right? So we did this video in Philly and it was like 20 degrees outside. We had no clothes on. It was freezing. We were there for hours. It's like with our coats on freezing and the artist is like doing his thing. So whatever, we got 50 dollars or something. I don't know. But that wasn't the moment because I started the company after that, but I was still like working a full time job. And then, you know, we were doing shows and, and things. And then at the Painted Bride in Philly, Full Circle came, and I remember being pregnant, I was like 8 or 9 months pregnant, and I was just like blown away by this show. And I was sitting there like, Oh, you can really, really do this thing. Like you can, you know, this is a full evening length work. I'm like, Oh, I was so inspired. I think Stretch was in that show. Um, Tweet Boogie. Um, yeah, like Clown, like everybody is, is just, is I talked to them about this all the time. Cause it was one of those moments. I think it. had kind of switched for me and kind of just gave me ideas of like where I wanted to go. Um, but then it just, it's also at that time like videotapes started like floating around of like Stretch and Tweety in Japan and Marge in Japan and everybody. And then I got, A videotape of the, one of the dopest shows I've ever seen in my life called Ghetto Originals or Jam on the Groove, which is by the company Ghetto Originals, which Kwik was in, Rok was in at some point too, Kwik as one of the founding members and I then understand the depth of it. Right? And then I met Stretch, Elite Force, Tweety, like it just at that moment, I knew it was going to be around forever. And, and, you know, Philly had its own crew, but it that it was local for me, you know what I mean?
So it was just realizing through all of that, that those things that kind of came into my space at the same time, how global it was, because I didn't know. You know, because you don't know, you know, I didn't know that they were teaching all around the world. Like that blew my mind. And the same thing that this show existed in the ‘90s (Johnson: Right). That was cause I think the footage I saw was in Europe somewhere. It wasn't even here. Cause it was like different language to transcribe the interviews and stuff. Yeah. You know, it was mad bootleg, but just watching that show made me understand that, Oh, this is global. And we took it there, you know? And so, you know, when you see these like students, you know, 500 Japanese students locking and popping and dancing freestyle, boom, boom, boom. Like we did that, you know what I mean? So I think that for me was like the change. And…
Buddha Stretch: Pre-YouTube.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: Yeah. No YouTube. No, no social media.
Buddha Stretch: No social media.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: VHS tapes.
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: And for those who don't know, Jam on the Groove is the first off Broadway hip hop dance theater piece (Garcia: that won a Bessie). So predates, uh, Rennie's work, predates a lot of work and kind of lays some groundwork.
Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia: They totally did. Yep. And even to this day when people tell me, Oh, have you seen Hamilton? It's the first hip hop play. I'm like, I'm like, do you have 30 minutes? Can I sit with you for 30 minutes? (audience laughs) Because we've got some work to do. We've got some history.
Buddha Stretch: Give them five. I got it on YouTube. You need to watch this.
Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia: Five minutes. Crash course. I've had many moments where I wanted to quit. I've had many moments where I felt like, where I felt like, this is not for me. Let me go work for a bank. I had an uncle who managed a bank and my mother was always like, vete al banco (audience laughs). I'd be like, no, I will dance on the subway if I have to. I'm not going into (laughs) the corporate world. But there were many times, so many times, but then there were also like moments like when I went to Japan. And, um, you know, my, my hair's curly. You know, I had to press it so it could fit under the headspin hat and put the headspin hat quickly for this dance piece, but my hair is curly. And so, I went to Japan and there were these Japanese women who I know have beautiful pin straight hair, but they had the curly hair. Or they had the locks. And I was like, What? And they were like, Hey, hey, how do you do it? And I was like, no, it just grows (audience laughs). I don't do it. Grandpa, grandpa was black. Um, so, uh, that trip, right. That trip was some, I came back taller from that trip. So that's one of them. That's one. Cause they were like, you know, what are you wearing? What do you eat? Like, where do you shop? You know, I'm like rainbows (audience laughs). There's no brand name, nothing. It's all like right on the app.
So many moments of affirmation. I think there were times when I would cry when I wouldn't make auditions and Shake, rest in peace, you know, light skin Shake. He caught me one time crying and I was like, why, why doesn't the industry like me? Why am I not it? And he was like, sister, please, those dancers can't go where you're going. Please stop crying. When you decide to rise, they all gonna wanna follow you. They all gonna jump where you're, where you're jumping. And, and it did lift me up. And I, I wanna say that one of the last things was I was in that Holla Back Young’n, uh, video by Fabulous. And there's a bunch of video vixens and they're all in the, you know, the place getting their hair and makeup done. And, you know, I got my ponytail, my mock neck, which is like almost a turtleneck. Because I don't, you know, I, this is what we wear. We have to spin. Okay, so there's no reason to have a push up bra or, you know, it's like, how do I cover myself? And I appear in that video Breaking. There's a linoleum, the fellas are Breaking, and I'm in it, and there's like two beautiful frames of me doing my munch mills, and one just doing one arm freeze, holding my crotch to the world like, yeah! (laughs) I'm here! Um, so that video to me is, um, affirmation, Rock, you got to keep going. Rokafella, you have to keep going because there will be moments. Just wait, wait for those moments.
Buddha Stretch: I’m going to say ashe to that. It's funny because there's for me, it's every time I think that I've done something and OK, this is it. Something else always came up. When I decided a lot of my peers told me I was crazy when I decided to stop doing music videos and stuff. And they were like, why, why with your resume, you could do this and that. I was like, nah, I'm going to go through, I'm going to do theater with Rok and Kwik. I'm going to be with full circle and I don't want to do music videos. I'm not going to LA. I don't care about all that. And they told me I was crazy. And they were like, yeah, you, you know, you, you could be doing this and that. And I was like, I'm doing theater. I'm going to go back to teaching. And then a couple of years passed by and I see all of these people, you know, that were making music videos and was so hype. Now they're like, how do you get to travel and teach like that? And wow, I saw you guys on Broadway. How did you do that? I'm like, Hmmm. Google it (audience laughs).
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: So what do you see as hip hop's role in the me, the me too movement, um, especially as a fairly male dominated space and how has that changed over time?
Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia: You know, in the beginning, I didn't, I didn't sense that there was something wrong because I was allowed to just jump in. To, to me, there was nothing wrong. It's as I continued and I got older and the lipstick and the bra and we need a catwalk and bring your heels to the audition. Make love to the camera. was told to me in an audition once, which I couldn't, I just can't, I don't, you know, this is between me and you only (audience laughs). That's it, nobody else gets to see. So, and I was brought up in this type of idea that I'm special, this is all special. I think that when you look at the mainstream, It's a stark contrast to what's happening in community. And so I had the choice to either transform and fit to what the camera and mainstream is asking of, uh, dancers, women, rappers, uh, or do this other against the grain life. And going against the grain means that you don't get hired. And people have labeled me troublesome, have said she's hard to work with because I'm going to put you to task. I say, well Why did you have that model of a b girl, which I had to tell Red Bull once, in heels? She's a b girl. She's wearing heels in your brochure. Like what? We don't wear heels. We're the anti-heel female dancer, if anything. Um, so why? But that didn't go over well, because why was Rokafella criticizing again? You know, I'll give you props when you deserve them, but I gotta tell you when you're, you're violating, you're violating. You're representing my life, what I stand for, the women around the world who put their heads on the floor, and, and rappers in general, like female rappers were like somebody's little sister, like, no, we're not putting you out there like that. You know, you're part of our clique, we protect you, you're part of us. But things change, because capitalism was like, well, sex sells, so I mean, come on, let's go. Come on, do something.
And so I think that on the underground and in the community, there is space for someone like me and us to design our universe. In my universe, there is no disrespecting women, there is no violating, there is no making the men always be criminal and toxic. We don't do that. We don't play toxic rap lyrics. I'll play the instrumental, um, in my dance classes. So I have a hard line, but I'm also creating this, I have the freedom to create this universe that I'm in. And you have a choice to step in and be here with me or you can go do whatever else you want to do. So I think the Me Too movement is tough because I think that if we were to bring that into hip hop, a lot of people would not be able to continue in hip hop because the streets informs hip hop and the streets is not a forgiving place for women. I can tell you. I dance on the street. And so, I think that what we do person to person, peer to peer, when we have interventions, when we do speak to people like watch out for so and so, or you know what, now so and so cannot come into this Breaking event ever until an apology and some resolution or therapy has, you know, restitution has been done, some restoration, it, it's there and it's beautiful. It's just you don't get to see it because y'all are only seeing the mainstream. And so, this should maybe help you to connect more to the underground, to people like us, so that you are, you are aware of the progressive nature of hip hop. It's always been forward thinking, it's always been community, but capitalism and the mainstream and the camera is gonna want one thing. And you have to know to discern between the two: commercial, community.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: What do I see as hip hop's role in uh the Me Too movement and how has it changed over time? I've been doing Ladies of Hip hop in particular for 20 years. So we just passed our 20 year anniversary in 2024. And often when I sit on panels, I get this question. Well, now it's obviously there's so many women in hip hop. You can see it in the music. You can see it in the dance. Um you know, like so what are you, you know, like what's your role now? What, what will you do now as if we have arrived there. And all things are good. Everyone's safe. We have all the safe spaces and there's nothing else. There's no more things to address within the community and what I find interesting about that is that I feel like even as a person who's been doing this for 20 years, that mark hasn't moved too far beyond, right? I think there's still so much in terms of the music being created. There's so much derogatory and misogynistic music still being created, even though obviously there's space for more. I do think that that's still the, the most shared or visible or accessible music, right? You kind of got to look for the other things. And I think this idea that, you know, the safe space is created because you can just see more women, it's just not true.
You know, I talk all the time with our dancers and we're still fighting individual battles, addressing things that happen that are inappropriate and specifically, you know, when we're on a shared bill with someone and something happens, there's still people being held accountable for things that they have done and said in the past, but still things that are happening in the present. And I mean, we're looking at one of the, the most successful, richest hip hop producers in the world being held accountable for things that he's allegedly, allegedly done. We have to talk about the uncomfortable things in the room and that women still face. And it's tough because, you know, I think as much as we are finding our voices, we're still not really encouraged as a whole, as women, to say the thing. And so Me Too is very powerful for us to, to not only feel empowered by other women, but you know, also find a space for us to then continue to share things that are happening to us. You know, Rokafella did a really, really good job of speaking about things that are uncomfortable and still being asked to present in a way and auditions that It's just not natural for, for us, you know. I think people have an idea still of hip hop dancers as scantily clad in high heels and, you know, makeup and big earrings. And like, I think it's just such a limited way for us to be seen as dancers and creators. And I, I do think that that's still very, very prevalent. And so I, if I can impart anything or add anything to that, it's to just understand that we have not made it there yet, people. We still have much, much more work to do and, and people still need to be held accountable. And I think people still need to check themselves in spaces and make sure that you are, you know, not contributing to someone feeling unsafe or uncomfortable in a space. And so, yeah, Me Too is still very, very important to the work that we do. Obviously because we're focused on women. But as a whole, you know, I think we still need to keep going back to these moments and the space that me too gave for us to have that conversation and know that it's still necessary And that you know, we still got to kind of look out for each other.
[Audio of music and audience clapping from all styles dance battle]
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: How does the dance look different when it's not choreographed for a performance?
Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia: It's more intense. It's way more intense. The three of us can be doing something in synchronicity, and it's great. But the minute we point to Stretch and he goes out, he's bringing an intensity that has not been rehearsed, and it's not expected. It's coming from somewhere else. Boom. It hits him through the music, and then it hits y'all. It's this serious ripple effect. And I know that theaters and cameras probably don't understand. And they want to know. I mean, already, right? We have something at Lincoln Center next Wednesday. And they're like, how long for each dancer within the, you know, battle? And we're like, no, no, no (audience laughs). There's, I cannot give you the time. The dancers have to improvise and when they're ready, boom, the judges will say this one won or that one. And so I know that it's hard to fathom something just being so unscripted and loose, but it's so powerful. It's so much more powerful. It’s so much more powerful.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: Just to add to that, again, this idea of how things live in community, we understand how we're supposed to respond in that call and response. So instead of people sitting and looking at us very nicely. And we're like, yeah, huh, huh, ha! Like, we're like, basically, like, our whole, just giving our whole lives on the stage, and not getting any response, you know? I think, you know, you're taught to be quiet when you're in the theater. All the things are off, no video. Like, first of all, get your cameras out because you might not, you might see something tonight that you're not going to see tomorrow, right? (Stretch: Never gonna see it again). And so the idea of like freestyle and interpreting music in real time, you could be the dopest person. Like we know she's the best dancer in this room, but guess what? Somebody just roasted her because they were tapped in at a different level. And a lot of presenters don’t love to see the freestyle. They want you to see this perfection. I think what's unique about being able to do freestyle is that we get to be, like, tuned in in a way that requires more than just like, okay, right foot, left foot, turn. Okay. Okay. Back up. And, and it allows you to bring your personality and what you're feeling that day. I had a shitty day at work. So now that is what that freestyle is going to look like. You know, I had a great day. We going to Praise the Lord today, you know? So it's, it’s and I think we do that anyway, whether we're given the space or not. You know what I mean? I think a lot of the work that for sure that I want to make sure that that is present in what we're presenting as Ladies of Hip Hop, I think that's our job. And if y'all don't respond to us, we respond to each other. We talk to each other. You know, listen, I talk on stage, talk to each other, give each other, support each other on stage. And so I think, you know, you’ll, you'll see that in certain shows and then there's shows that we're trying, like I'm, I've been guilty of it trying to change my work to fit in what I think the audience might want or the presenter might expect, but now I'm not doing that anymore. It's all new. So come back for the next show.
Buddha Stretch: Yeah. To quote the great Tyrone Proctor. When you're doing freestyle improvisation, you become a three dimensional image of sound.
[Music with deep vibrational base beats plays under Stretch's words]
You're watching the sound. You're not hearing it anymore, you're watching it. That's what the freestyle is for. The improvisation is you watching the music. It's a spiritual connection that you can't get through here. It has to come through the entire senses right here. And the improvisation is what grabs you, holds you, and takes you, and makes you appreciate the choreography.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: How does the dance look different when it's not for performance? I really love the answers for this question. I'm going to expand it or push it a little bit further and think about what is performance? Because we talked a lot about freestyle and being able to have the space to do that as hip hop practitioners. And so that then makes me think about what is performance? And what we're asking of the people who are in it. in the space of performance, right? And so what I would love to have the space to do in my career now is, is to ask the audience to expand their palette of like what they're seeing and what they're really seeing as opposed to what their expectations of performance are. It's not about us changing for performance. Right? And, and, and making it look different, but making the expectation and responsibility of the audience to open up and really see the thing for what it is and not have expectations around who performs it. Right? Other than I think making space for its authenticity and to see the value and the power in that as an audience member. And not compare it to other performers. I have talked about this to other folks, especially within our community and even outside of our community, because, you know, we have friends that dance for different dance communities, right? Not everybody that I'm friends with is a street dancer. There's definitely people who are in my community that we talk about where our dancers should be. And I think our dancers should be anywhere there is dance, right? I think so.
Performance to me looks like, you know, being able to present as part of works-in-process at the Guggenheim, but also in a community space and it all having value. I think the audience should be open to what is out there because there's so much. I mean, we've only began to scratch the surface. And I think part of what will allow audience to grow and organizations to grow and, and what they're presenting and curating is It's to understand that that street dance is vast. I mean, we're talking about hip hop, but I think what I want to educate the audience on is that street dances is an umbrella term, not meaning that it was only done in streets, right? It can be done on stage and it can be choreographed and it could be freestyle and it can be improv and all of the different terms. There's Popping, there's Locking, there's House, there's Waacking, there's Punking, there's Breaking, there's all of these different things that make up street dance culture. That meaning that the dance has started within community, usually with marginalized people. And it was done in spaces that we had access to. But now that we have all these different spaces that we have access to, we shouldn't have to change it to fit in those spaces, those expectations. And I think really narrow mindset of how art should look on stage or how dance should look on stage.
I would love to invite everyone, both presenters and audience to look beyond that and see what's out there, right? And find what's interesting to you and connect to that and support that. I would love to be able to ask presenters to have us, you know, um, like for the next 50 years, don't have us once a year as, you know, when you're celebrating the street and club dance culture, but to have us throughout your season to program us in, you know, your residencies to commission us as choreographers, to have a longer relationship with you as an organization where we can really build. I mean, we're stepping into places like the Pillow has existed for 90 years, right? But we haven't been there for 90 years. And so that we have only been able to scratch the surface of what performance can look like for us. I think there's so much more that can be done if we're actually given the space and support and real opportunity to, you know, build with not only our community, but other communities, other resources, and you know, then what is the presenter's responsibility, curator's responsibility? And it's more about committing to what's out there and rather than trying to like shape it into a thing. But yeah, I'm excited about what that can look like in the years to come for street dance.
Dr. Imani Kai Johnson: And so how has moving through different kinds of spaces and sites and institutions with hip hop shaped your life. Can you give us some, give us some insight into that experience?
Michele Byrd-McPhee: I'm going to put that in the present tense and say, how is it shaping…Because I feel like for so long, and I'm just going to speak from my perspective, these two are New Yorkers. So the opportunities I think were different and, and access was different being, you know, from a very close and still dope city, Philadelphia. Hello. Things came in waves, right? So I, I saw Stretch on videos and before I even knew what this thing was, and before I even knew him and saying for Rok, and then. Then the next thing, I was going to clubs, and then I would see these people in clubs still not even making the connections that this was the person. And so, for me, this as a career, or as a thing that you do, other than entertainment, or fun, or hanging out with your friends, there was no reality to that. Like, I was, forever kind of pushed in other directions. And I was pushing myself to grow up. And even people would say to me when I started my own, co-founded with Crystal Frazier and all-female hip hop company in the nineties in Philly, folks would say to me, you still do that hip hop stuff. And so it didn't even matter if I was getting a job or working or whatever. I actively ran away from it. And then having a kid at also put other demands on me. I think I talked myself out of it for a long time, but people like Stretch and, and just the culture itself wouldn't let go. Opportunities kept opening up. Every time I thought I was done, I kept coming back in.
And so I think now is a unique opportunity. You know, I'm working with dancers. I've known their parents before they were even thought of, you know, and now they're adults and I'm working with them. And because of those long term relationships and community, now I have opportunities to kind of like, live through them and with them on stage. And so that's really dope. And so like that's why I'm saying it's affecting how I'm moving through space now. Because at one point after working for a bunch of people and Nonprofits and seeing how they want you as part of their organization so that they can put you in the grant because you are the authentic thing that they don't really know what it is. And I something happened during George Floyd where one of the executive directors came to me and said, Oh my God, it's been a week and we haven't made a comment and we have, you know, we use street dance. And I said, Mm-hmm yeah, you just realized I knew that. I already made my statement. You know, I've already said, you know, I've already been outraged. And she said to me, well, how come you didn't write one? And I said, you're the executive director, not me. That's your job (Johnson: Right). So, what it made me, it gave me the courage to like, push back. And I think the more that I stay in this and embrace it as opposed to running away from it, the more I realize the power and value of what I can do. And so, I don't know where it's gonna take me. That was the last job where I worked for someone else. Now I work for myself. And run my own organization. And since I made that commitment to myself, it has done nothing but, uh, And so that's how it's changed how I move through space.
Buddha Stretch: The funniest thing to me is this was never supposed to be what I wanted to do. I had no idea that I would be sitting here explaining about hip hop culture when I started. It wasn't something that was relatable as far as a job or, or a living. And the funniest thing to me over the last, I say, a decade or so is, when I used to travel, I used to come through customs and I would tell them when I'm returning from somewhere, Oh, and they, uh, you know, what do you do? Oh, I'm a choreographer, I'm a teacher, I teach dance. Oh, what kind of dance do you do? Oh, hip hop. They would look at me strange. But now when I come by, when I go through customs, and I say I teach hip hop, they're like, Oh, wow! What do you, what kind of hip hop? And do you know this? And, and I remember one time, uh, going through customs years ago, and they stopped me to go through my bags. I was coming back from Japan, I think. And they were like, So, you're a choreographer, what have you choreographed? I said, OK, here, just watch this. And I pulled up my reel, and I showed them my reel. And they called all the customs agents in (audience laughs) and they're talking and they're like, yo, and yo, I did Michael Jackson and look and Mariah Carey and blah, blah, blah. And they're talking and like five minutes goes by. I was like, guys, uh, can I go now? (audience continues to laugh) Like, can I get my bag? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They pack my stuff up and let me go. So it was it's really funny and comedic for me every time that I learned something new and that a new experience in the culture and the way that they see the culture. how they look at the culture now as opposed to before. Before it was, if I mentioned hip hop, it had to be rap. You know, now when I mentioned hip hop and I mentioned dance, they know what I'm talking about. And then when the conversation goes and they're like, Oh wow, you teach, how long have you been teaching? I'm like, I've been teaching a while. I'm like, how long is a while? Well, how old are you? I'm 30. I started teaching four years before you were born (audience laughs). And they're like, And I'm like, yeah, I kind of know a thing about this.
Ana ‘Rokafella’ Garcia: I mean, I've grown as a woman because of hip hop. There's no way, I mean, I really have to attribute the, my journey in hip hop from girlhood, teenhood, to womanhood is because of hip hop. I gained a lot of confidence just jumping into a circle. I also had to learn how to set my boundaries. And so the b girl book that's out, that Martha Cooper, a famous photographer, put out, um, I wrote a little, uh, forward to it. I testified that I was in a circle once, and having a great time, uh, in a club, and some guy had to grab me, and he was starting to hug me, and we, you know, like reenacting like a sex act. And I decided at that point, no one's ever gonna do that to me again. And while he had my legs wrapped around his waist, I just flipped back into like a back walkover, basically. Released my legs, went through his legs, and then kicked him out the circle (audience laughs). And it was one of the first times that I felt like, Yes, this is my space. Don't come into my space unless I invite you. Like I say, like, if I like you then, okay, we talk over here (audience laughs). We talk over here on the side, but don't put me out there in front of the public as something that is, you know, that can be crushed. Um, it helped me to grow, um, in that respect, but also once I danced on the street that also gave me thick skin because New Yorkers are, aaah, you know, um, New Yorkers will throw a quarter and New Yorkers will hurl some real, really weird, um, you know, epithets at you, um, whatever. The crew I was dancing with that is having an anniversary this weekend, the Breeze team, hard to get along with as a girl. I mean, props off, you know, hats off to them, but, uh, uh, um, so hip hop, each step of the way, taught me how to become more resilient.
And when I met this gentleman, and he brought Kwikstep, who's my husband of like 28 years, brought me to, yeah, yeah, it's been a little bit of a while. Um, he brought me to his teachers, and he took me to Europe, one of my first trips to Europe. And, uh, those breakers were saying, Hey, Hollywood thinks that it can tell you when and where and how to do your thing. And we were like, Nah, no way. We're going to continue to do it. We're going to learn something called self-producing. We're going to do our own events. We're going to bring graffiti writers and The emcees that we know on the underground. We're gonna bring the poppers. You know, at that point it wasn't so much about contests and trophies and prizes the way it is now. But it was a resilient, a defiant, um, aspect that really taught me a lot. Cause even after that when I would go to other countries, you know, maybe I didn't have money to stay at a hotel. But breakers would be like you can stay in my living room or I have a couch. Like the dance network is unbelievably efficient. And yet everyone's poor. It's Everyone is poor.
And so with each step of the way that I was being allowed to spread my wings and be somebody, hip hop was there saying, well, what else you got? And oh, you got to come with something else because we saw that. That's on video now. What else you got? What other moves you got? Oh, there's more girls now. It's not just you. What you got? You know, and now even now my gray hair is what you got? What can you do? And so I think hip hop has helped me to grow into the woman that I am today and that self-producing is an aspect that was right there in the beginning of hip hop with the flyer that you see that is being passed around and with the hats that had the, you know, rhinestones and the graffiti with your name on the shirt. Self-promotion, self-producing. You, you, you gain this because no one is doing it. You know, there was no record label back in the day. So you had to promote. I mean, I think 50 Cent, right, was, um, selling cassettes out of his, um, trunk.
Buddha Stretch: Even before him. Eazy-E (Garcia: There you go). Ice-T.
Michele Byrd-McPhee: How has moving through spaces and institutions with hip hop culture shaped my life is a great question. And the answer was for me to shift that to shaping. And I'm going to continue using that word shaping in the present tense. Hip hop. Culture and my involvement in it has now provided me with the opportunity to, uh, join the faculty at UMass Amherst as a full time tenure track professor. That's a new space and a new institution that I'll be navigating with hip hop. As, as my compass gets continuing to shape my identity, it's the lens and how I see the world. And being able to be rooted in hip hop culture and use the innovation and resilience and authenticity that I think is so present in that dance and in that community. It just really anchors me in a way that I didn't feel anchored or part of other spaces that I've been in, um, meaning the corporate spaces that I've been in, you know, it's often been a part of my identity that I didn't necessarily hide, but I didn't outwardly share it. And so again, I think it's, I'm in this active practice of allowing it to be the compass in which I move through the world. So I'm going to continue to allow that to, to be the compass that I, that I to move through space with, with this new position of being able to now contribute to a lexicon of research that I think is missing women's voices, women's stories. We know that women have been there from the very beginning, and have always remained part of it, but, you know, our stories just haven't been documented or have actively been erased or have just been excluded as important. Moving into that institution with, with hip hop as my anchor and compass is a very special place to be because I can continue the impact beyond just presenting and being on stage. I think it's giving me an opportunity to really have longevity in a different way. And I know it kind of sounds crazy, like how does hip hop culture move you through the world, but I know that you out there who practice and who participate and who are part of and support hip hop, the hip hop culture and community, you know what I mean?
[Music excerpt from live performance of Parable of PassAge . Lyrics: 'keep goin'... keep goin'... keep goin'... All that you touch you change. All that you change, changes you. The only lasting truth is change. God is change. keep goin'... keep goin'... keep goin'... keep goin'... keep goin'...]
Norton Owen: That’s it for this episode of PillowVoices. Thank you for joining us today. On behalf of Jacob’s Pillow, we look forward to sharing more dance with you through the films, essays, and podcasts at DanceInteractive.jacobspillow.org and, of course, through live experiences during our festival and throughout the year. Special thanks to the National Endowment for the Arts for helping launch this podcast series. Please subscribe to PillowVoices wherever you get your podcasts and visit us soon, either online or onsite.