Archie Burnett is a legendary New York house and vogue dancer, and Sally Sommer is a dance historian and critic who helped document underground club culture. They first connected as student and teacher in the early 80's at the School of Visual Arts. More than 40 years later they reflect on how they first met, their highs and lows through the decades, and what they hope to pass on to future house and club dancers around the world.
Norton Owen: Welcome to Pillow Voices, a production of Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival, with content drawn from the Pillow Archives and the artistic community. I'm Norton Owen, the Pillow's Historian and Founding Director of Preservation, and it's my pleasure to introduce this episode featuring highlights from a 2021 interview with Archie Burnett, conducted by Sally Sommer.
While these two have each devoted their lives to dance, Sommer as a historian, filmmaker, and longtime professor at Florida State University, and Burnett as the first father of the New York-based House of Ninja, they started out as teacher and student in the 1980s. More than 40 years later, while Archie Burnett was performing an autobiographical work called Life Encounters here at the Pillow, they sat down together to reflect on how they first met, their highs and lows through the decades, and what they hope to pass on to future House and club dancers around the world.
Sally Sommer: When they asked me to do this interview—
Archie Burnett: Yes...
Sally Sommer: The thing that I said is that I wanted us to talk about stuff that we hadn't.
Archie Burnett: Yes. Yeah.
Sally Sommer: And to record, to document stories— (Burnett: Mm)...that make us, us, and make our relationship what it is.
Archie Burnett: Yeah, we got some good ones.
Sally Sommer: And then I wanna ask you some big questions about House.
Archie Burnett: Especially that 10-year gap that we lost contact, and where I knew where you lived and why I didn't come up there.
Sally Sommer: Oh, let's do that one.
Archie Burnett: That's important. That's important. Mm.
Sally Sommer: Start with the story about SVA and where we met.
Archie Burnett: Oh, okay. So, so—
Sally Sommer: But that can go fast, 'cause we wanna do the 10-year gap.
Archie Burnett: Okay. So—
Sally Sommer: Okay.
Archie Burnett: So, uh, oh, lord. Well, what year, what year, what year?
Sally Sommer: '79, '80 or '81. Mm. We don't know.
Archie Burnett: Yeah. '79. Yeah, it couldn't be '80. It had to be before. So, like, 'cause I graduated out of junior high school, no, out of high school in '77. So, yeah, '79.
Sally Sommer: '79.
Archie Burnett: '79. '79. Okay. '79, '80.
Sally Sommer: All right.
Archie Burnett: You know, I hate history. I hate it. 'Cause for me *(Sommer laughs)*— No, seriously, I hate it. If, for me, if it has nothing to do with me, it's gonna go whoops out my ear. So unfortunately for me, SVA, you had to take elective classes, right?
Norton Owen: Yeah, you did.
Archie Burnett: So, you know, 'cause I'm thinking, I think at the time I just wanted to do advertising, not really knowing why. I mean, I just wanted to do art. So, um, the elective classes were there and I was like, "Oh man, I gotta take one of these. I don't wanna end up doing shit I don't..." So I saw a Black dance history class, right? So in my head it was just this simple. Well, I'm Black, you know, let me do that. So I figured, okay, I'll take Black history. Maybe, you know... I'm thinking, you know, it, it... When you're young, it's kinda stupid because you're thinking, "Oh, Black history. Well, I know." Haven't studied a lick about it. Yeah, I'm Black. Sure, sure. It should be organic (Sommer laughs). Should be organic.
Sally Sommer: Right.
Archie Burnett: So I go, no lie, Sally, I'm sitting in a class like this, and here comes this little white lady. And I'm going. What she know about Black history? Like if I knew about Black history, right? Sally, I'ma tell you, you turned me out. You turned me out. The first thing you did, till today I still remember it like it was yesterday. You took a monitor, and the monitor, you remember that the monitor—
Sally Sommer: Oh, God, we had to bring him in on carts.
Archie Burnett: Yes.
Sally Sommer: We had to push these carts down the hallway.
Archie Burnett: That's right. That's the, eeh, eeh, eeh, eeh.
Sally Sommer: Yeah, these old…Yeah.
Archie Burnett: These big thick monitors.
Sally Sommer: Television.
Archie Burnett: Yep. The, like the—
Sally Sommer: And the great big VHS's.
Archie Burnett: Yep, that's right.
Sally Sommer: Oh, Jesus, yes.
Archie Burnett: She put that thing right on the table. I'm like, "What is this?" I'm like, ah, halfway in, halfway out. Baby, you put on James Brown on The Ed Sullivan Show.
Sally Sommer: That's right.
Archie Burnett: I stood there going (Sommer laughs)... Because I remember on the black and white Magnavox TV at where I lived in Brooklyn, me as a kid watching that going— James Brown tore it up
Sally Sommer: Oh, he's one of the great
Archie Burnett: He tore it up...
Sally Sommer: Come on…One of the…
Archie Burnett: That's my man.
Sally Sommer: Greatest dancers—
Archie Burnett: He tore it u…
Sally Sommer: —in the second half of the 20th century.
Archie Burnett: Doggone right.
Sally Sommer: Come on.
Archie Burnett: You doggone right.
Sally Sommer: Come on. Yeah.
Archie Burnett: So then, I'll never forget, I'm watching this thing, and I'm going, "Yo, this class is gonna be something else." Next thing, you put on the Berry Brothers. I was done.
Sally Sommer: Yeah, yeah.
Archie Burnett: —was done.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: Done, done, done. So I'm going, "Yo, this is dope." But I gotta tell you, I was getting ready to fail that class 'cause I hated history. I hate it. I didn't wanna do any work or nothing. I gotta tell you something. Miss Sally gave me the fiercest read with no emotion. She said, "RJ, I'd like to talk to you. You know you're really gonna fail this class," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I felt so low by the time she did that shit. I pulled a B+ out of that class, baby. I pulled a B+ out of that. But the funniest part is that, okay, so we're talking about, Sally's teaching me about, um, about the importance of the social, and she was speaking about, I think we were talking about, you, in class you were talking about the Cakewalk and all of these other, these, these social dances. So then it turns out—
Sally Sommer: That became worldwide dance fads.
Archie Burnett: Yeah.
Sally Sommer: That's what's so important—
Archie Burnett: Yeah.
Sally Sommer: ...Is that, you know, it changed the face of dance worldwide, not just in America, but worldwide.
Archie Burnett: Crazy. Crazy.
Sally Sommer: Huge influence. Yeah.
Archie Burnett: I would, I would never know that. And, and, and we were speaking about, in class we were speaking about how important social was. Then we were speaking about what the gathering spaces for us to go in. Sally was mentioning all of these other spaces, like let's say this club or that club. And I'll never forget, my face is going.
Sally Sommer: That's right (laughs).
Archie Burnett: But so, so the funny thing is she sees me doing this physically, and she asks me, "What's wrong?" And I said, "Well, girl, you've been going to the wrong clubs." And it, no later than like this, just like that, no emotion, she goes, just like this, "Oh, well take me." And c- that kind of sh- you don't know this part. That kind of shocked me 'cause I'm saying, you know... Okay, let me back up. Being a West Indian kid in, in America, first generation American, it was always parent-child, teacher-student. You never even think that a teacher would tell a student, "Okay, take me to that spot." You kind of freak out 'cause it's like your parent, you know? You don't, you don't... And it's weird. It's like a, like a button that's instilled in you. And I feel, oh, oh. So I didn't show it, but I was like, "Oh, okay. Well..." And I remember saying, "Oh, but there's a catch. The party starts at midnight." And you went, "Okay, so? I'm going." I roll up to The Loft. We're there hanging out in the street before the place opens. Here come Miss Sally, dun-dun-dun-dun-dun, walking up the block. I didn't know that you lived not too far from there. So we go in. Upstairs is dark, you know, with the mirror ball, and you know, everybody in this, this kinda atmosphere and vibe. But baby, downstairs—
Sally Sommer: Downstairs. Downstairs.
Archie Burnett: Downstairs.
Sally Sommer: That's where it's happening.
Archie Burnett: Oh my God. Downstairs people are going nuts.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: Hitting the rafter, the, the air ducts for the air conditioner (Sommer laughs). Bam, bam. People are taking baby powder, throwing it on the floor, and stomping their feet, and stomping their feet on the wall.
Sally Sommer: Well, I'll pick up from here— what it was like for me.
Archie Burnett: Oh yeah, yeah.
Sally Sommer: I don't…
Archie Burnett: I never knew this.
Sally Sommer: So I, so, so here I am. You know, I'm a trained dance historian, and I've been—
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm
Sally Sommer: ...mucking around with this stuff for—
Archie Burnett: And dancer.
Sally Sommer: Yes. And dancer.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: I'd been mucking with this stuff, like, forever. But The Loft was, like, it was epic.
Archie Burnett: Mm.
Sally Sommer: It changed my ideas about dancing like this.
Archie Burnett: Wow. I never knew that.
Sally Sommer: It was instantaneous. It was like when I first saw what I consider to be the great tap dancers.
Archie Burnett: Wow.
Sally Sommer: And every idea I had about dance history just goes shwft.
Archie Burnett: Wow.
Sally Sommer: And it's another time.
Archie Burnett: Just like—
Sally Sommer: Yes. And it's instantaneous. And you know, I, I don't go back. I don't kind of—
Archie Burnett: Oh, that's fierce.
Sally Sommer: Yeah. No. I don't, I don't go back once I have one of those moments.
Archie Burnett: Wow.
Sally Sommer: I don't even think about what happened before.
Archie Burnett: Wow.
Sally Sommer: I just—
Archie Burnett: That's a good practice...
Sally Sommer: I just go forward.
Archie Burnett: Wow.
Sally Sommer: And that was what it was like. It was life-changing. And it was such fun (Burnett laughs). And you know what people forget—
Archie Burnett: Mm.
Sally Sommer: Uh, particularly aca- academics.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: You know, they've got to theorize everything.
Archie Burnett: Yeah.
Sally Sommer: And we have to put everything into a neat little explanatory package.
Archie Burnett: Catch it.
Sally Sommer: Uh-huh.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: And really, what is forgotten is the pleasure principle.
Archie Burnett: Exactly. Exactly.
Sally Sommer: And people go out dancing because they have to have pleasure and joy in their life. That is survival.
Archie Burnett: Preach, girl. Preach.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: I know. It saved my life.
Sally Sommer: And—
Archie Burnett: You know?
Sally Sommer: But they forget that. And for me too, it's exactly the same thing.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: It's the pleasure principle.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: I mean, yes, it means everything else too, but you don't theorize about it. You go out to have fun.
Archie Burnett: But didn't that make you the odd man out, or the odd woman out?
Sally Sommer: Of course.
Archie Burnett: Mm.
Sally Sommer: But I'd been out of step for so long.
Archie Burnett: Yes, mother. Yes, mother. Yes.
Sally Sommer: (Laughs). You know.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: Let's get out of step more.
Archie Burnett: Go on.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: Go on.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: Oh, I remember there's one thing you did. You brought this young lady, and I'll never forget her name, Charmaine. The ballet dancer, the one that you had me pick up in class. You might have forgotten that. It was something she danced for some ballet company. I don't know if it was Dance Theatre of Harlem—
Sally Sommer: Probably...
Archie Burnett: …or what have you.
Sally Sommer: But— Oh, it was Dance Theatre of Harlem. I got it. I remember it. Okay. Yeah.
Archie Burnett: Yes. You remember?
Sally Sommer: I brought her in because, yeah, she needed to talk about being Black in ballet.
Archie Burnett: And, and it stuck in my mind because, you know, just having that experience, saying, you know, she was telling her story about training and being in, being a Black woman in—
Sally Sommer: Ballet...
Archie Burnett: In ballet, which is—
Sally Sommer: Big deal...
Archie Burnett: Very big deal. You know? And, and honestly, Sally, those experiences I never would have gotten had I not taken your class, just out of the fact that I said, "Oh, please, let me just take her class." So that's why I think things are meant to be, where they are. When I, when things happen, there are energies that put it in your path to say, "You know what? Take that lesson."
[Music interlude]
Sally Sommer: You said that we should talk about the gap where we lost touch.
Archie Burnett: Oh, here's the thing. Now, growing up in Brooklyn in the '60s, civil rights and all of that other stuff. It never occurred to me that my parents, obviously because they were older and they moved from another country to America, that they're seeing things with alien eyes, you know? And they transfer their fears to their kids, you know. "Don't go here. Don't, don't, don't eat people's food. Come back home straight from the..." You know, we're like a kid. Kids just wanna associate with other kids. I wanna play with other kids, that type thing. We could not bring any other kid home. You know, like how most kids can bring, "Oh, bring a friend home"? My mother was, "Mm-mm. Nope, nobody's entering this house." So for me, it gave me a really weird, weird feeling. And then my first hit with racism was when I was 15, going at, um—
Sally Sommer: What happened?
Archie Burnett: Oh, child, that was not cute. I was, um, actually, lies, it was younger than that. I was about tw- I was in junior high school. I went to PS 212, and it went from grade, I guess grade one to maybe six, and seventh grade started junior high school. So there was this kid that we were all, we were all kids. We're having a good old time. This white kid, we're having a good old time. He was a year over me. We're cool in junior high school. So I guess I was in fifth grade, he was in sixth grade. Then when I moved from sixth grade, he'd gone to junior high school. Then when I got to the seventh grade, I had to go to another school, which was, uh, Cavallero. And I didn't see him. He wasn't at that school. But I remember when I got, m- how do you say? Finished out of, um, you know, school, you're getting your books, you're getting ready to leave. So I was walking to the train station, and it w- goes by a bus depot, and he was standing by the bus depot, and he walked out of the bus depot and stood in front of me. I think the guy's name was Philip. I was like, "Hey, Philip, how you doing?" Blah, blah, blah. And, and we were cool in junior high school. But when he's, he's looking at me and I didn't pay any attention, his boys were surrounding me at the time, and I had a friend. So what happened, as he surrounded me, next minute I was, "Oh, yeah, well," blah, blah, blah. So I went to, to leave the conversation. One of his boys hit me in the back and had a tennis racket.
Sally Sommer: Shit.
Archie Burnett: And the tennis racket, the racket was off the tennis, so it was like a spike. And he was getting ready to stab me, you know? So my friend that was there, he freaked out and pop, he hit the kid and, and the thing fell down. We were running. So the joke that I say now, I was doing so much running in that white neighborhood, child, I joined the track team. They could never catch me, for real. But that's how it was, you know? It was Bensonhurst. What do you want? It was Bensonhurst. Every stereotype you could think of was right there.
Sally Sommer: It's true.
Archie Burnett: And we were the second year of kids integrated in Cavallero Junior High School.
Sally Sommer: Wow, I didn't know that.
Archie Burnett: That's what happened. Every so often, we had a code. Any time we knew, the Black kids always, and the Puerto Rican kids always hung out on the basketball court. The white kids used to hang out on the baseball court in the school. Any time we knew that the white kids were in the handball court, we knew some shit was gonna go down.
Sally Sommer: Mm-hmm.
Archie Burnett: It was crazy like that.
Sally Sommer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Archie Burnett: You know, it's, it's almost like a warning sign. Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. And that's when that girl I call my sister, Donna Gorstlein. She's Latina, German, Black. We went in the handball court, and lo and behold, we noticed, okay, next minute, who they always gotta mess with? The tall one, right? And I'm, and I'm, I'm, I'm a baby. I, I'm, I, I, I'm not belligerent. I'm none of that shit.
Sally Sommer: Mmm.
Archie Burnett: So what happens is they come, boom. Guy takes a pipe.
Sally Sommer: Holy crap.
Archie Burnett: Bam. Hits me on the head with the pipe. But the freaky thing was my adrenaline was going so crazy. And back in those days, Bruce Lee came, uh, was popular in the '70s. So back in the... We all thought we were Bruce Lee, right? So this guy hits me on the pipe. The adrenaline, uh, you know, first of all, I was so scared. The adrenaline hit me like this, and when he hit me on the head with the pipe, bam, I just looked at the guy like this. And, and he had this weird look on his face like he didn't wanna… But while I was fighting, somebody ran in the, in the lunchroom and told my sister, well, the girl I call my sister, "Donna, there's a fight outside. There's a fight outside." Donna, that's why it teached me a lot about friendship and family that doesn't have to be related to you by blood. Donna runs out. She runs out. The white kid was on me. This girl, he didn't see her. She grabbed him by the hair, pulled him back, and took her whole body and bam, knocked that ass out. His boys went— Boom, everybody's scattered. The cops came in—
Sally Sommer: Yeah, it goes so fast…
Archie Burnett: ...and all that, and all that craziness. But here's the funny thing I never told anybody. I never got into fights, right? So they took me to the nurse's office. In the nurse's office, nobody was there in the nurse's office, and I'm looking in the mirror with blood on my lip going like this…'Cause for me, I felt it was like a rite of passage, you know? It's crazy.
Sally Sommer: Well, it was a rite of passage.
Archie Burnett: It was, you know. But I must say, getting white people to (?) come up to your house, it had me hating white people for a long time. So then we had this program when I was 15 now, into, um, Cooper Union. That's when I got introduced to the village, where a whole bunch of different kids, they're not worrying about that bullshit.
Sally Sommer: Mm-mm.
Archie Burnett: That's where I met my friend Adam, you know?
Sally Sommer: Mmm.
Archie Burnett: Till today we're like that. And Adam's like, either his house, either love his dad, love his mom. Same thing with him and my mom. And the, the weirdest thing is like we're walking around and I don't feel this. So when I came to your house the first time, I'm looking at the neighborhood, I'm going, "Wow, this block is shi shi fu fu." You know? And you living where you lived, I thought, "Wow." But in my head was that same stigma that if a Black guy walks up to this building, I'm gonna get in trouble. So I never... I, I always passed it. I never said, "Let me go and see."
Sally Sommer: Yeah. 'Cause you were—
Archie Burnett: Ring the bell.
Sally Sommer: …Work, you were working what, two blocks away.
Archie Burnett: Yeah, I was working two blocks away. I said, "But let me, let me not..." Uh, uh, and, and I can't remember exactly when I got up the nerve to press the bell, and then as soon as I pressed the bell it's like, oh, we reconnected, blah, blah, and I told you that right away.
Sally Sommer: I remember you telling me that.
Archie Burnett: It's amazing.
Sally Sommer: And I was just- I said, "No." Oh, Archie.
Archie Burnett: I know. So, no. I know. But you know what? This, this world and—
Sally Sommer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Archie Burnett: …the conditioning that happens— Yeah, yeah, yeah... in this world, it changes your behavior. So here's the thing f- that I've learned now. All the stuff that we've learned in our lifetime, we gotta unpack and unlearn that bullshit, because half of that stuff, it don't apply. That's why now these kids teach me to live my life out loud now. I don't, I don't play with that bullshit anymore. I lived in a time of why. These kids live in a time of why not. Oh, why go... See, when you asked me to go to Amsterdam, my exact reaction was that to go, "Me? Go to..." 'Cause it's a big thing to go from, leave America, and then all the doubts started coming in there. "Well, oh, shit, I don't speak the language," blah, blah. You're like, "It's fine. It's fine." "No, I don't speak the language," blah, blah, blah. So you know what I did? I'll never forget. I bought a little Casio. A Casio was a earlier part of a computer that y- it has a little type, little keyboard in there. And then when she asked me to teach, I said, "Oh, shit, what am I gonna teach?" Because I do this thing organically. I, the two days- I sat typing everything that I do. Okay, when that song hits, I, oh, this, this. But this, oh, this, this. And I had a timeline because remember, you had helped me set the structure of the class. And I said, "Oh, shoot, I haven't did this before." So I'm going through all of this. So when I was in S *(laughs)*— When I was at SDNO, I had my little Casio over here, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Bring it back to the Casio. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. But what opened up those kids is when I said, "Okay, you find me a spot," because all this stuff that I'm teaching you makes no sense if it's not in the...
Sally Sommer: …if it's not in the environment.
Archie Burnett: If it's not in the club, yeah. Makes no sense.
Sally Sommer: Okay, that was gonna be another question—
Archie Burnett: Mm...
Sally Sommer: I was gonna ask you.
Archie Burnett: Mm.
Sally Sommer: I know they took you to the club.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: That's the way you got into the—
Archie Burnett: Havana, baby...
Sally Sommer: …acts. Yeah, yeah.
Archie Burnett: Havana.
Sally Sommer: But what I was gonna ask you is— Mm... what is it like, you're a house dancer now without a club, 'cause the clubs are just going down the tubes.
Archie Burnett: It's driving me crazy. Marianos' dad runs a party with David DePino. It's The Garage party. That party is mecca, can I tell you. Mecca. You know, here's the thing. We all grew up, my generation, we all grew up the underground. We grew up in the loft and the garage. When the loft and the garage closed, we were like lost. Because these were breeding grounds for us to nurture just the Come As You Are party. You know, y- you have places where people go pick up, you got places where you go... Eh, we're not talking about that.
Sally Sommer: No, no.
Archie Burnett: We're talking about people who are there for that musical experience to just be a part of something greater than themselves.
Sally Sommer: You know—
Archie Burnett: You know?...
Sally Sommer: ...the reason I fell in love with house dancing—
Archie Burnett: Mm...
Sally Sommer: And mind you, I'm there as a watcher. I'm there as a, I'm a professional watcher. That's what I do.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: I watch.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: Because, first the music of course, which is irresistible.
Archie Burnett: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sally Sommer: But it was because people were there for serious reasons.
Archie Burnett: Mm.
Sally Sommer: They were there to dance. They weren't there to scope out, be scoped.
Archie Burnett: Come on with it.
Sally Sommer: Pick up.
Archie Burnett: Come on with it.
Sally Sommer: Hook up.
Archie Burnett: Come on with it.
Sally Sommer: They were there—
Archie Burnett: Mm...
Sally Sommer: ...to do something else…
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: …which is dance.
Archie Burnett: Mm. Yeah.
Sally Sommer: And dance to me is so redemptive and so transformational.
Archie Burnett: Absolutely.
Sally Sommer: And it changes, you go in feeling one way, you come out feeling another way.
Archie Burnett: And that's important to say, 'cause this transformation happens over a series of hours.
Sally Sommer: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Archie Burnett: Not like, oh, the club is open from 10:00 to 2:00, that's it.
Sally Sommer: No, no, no, no..
Archie Burnett: No.. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. We're talking midnight till 1:00 the next afternoon.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: We're talking going straight through, having an experience, going through emotions.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: Going through—
Sally Sommer: Yeah...
Archie Burnett: …everything, to end up totally changed—
Sally Sommer: Yep...
Archie Burnett: when you leave that joint.
Sally Sommer: Yep.
Archie Burnett: And it's like breathing. And because it's like breathing, you need your fix every week.
Sally Sommer: Mm-hmm.
Archie Burnett: You need your fix.
Sally Sommer: Oh, yeah.
Archie Burnett: So—
Sally Sommer: Oh, yeah...
Archie Burnett: You know, I, I would go crazy. So with this thing about the clubs were closed, honestly, it was driving me crazy. You know, I went through every- everything like everybody did. I went through the depression, I went through eating, overeating, saying, "Oh, first, hey, I, I can't travel now. Good, I can chill a bit." Child, I started sleeping late every day, couldn't tell—
Sally Sommer: Are you talking about COVID now?
Archie Burnett: Yeah.
Sally Sommer: Okay.
Archie Burnett: Yeah, because you had asked me about the, uh, you know, with the clubs being closed.
Sally Sommer: The dancer without a club. Yeah.
Archie Burnett: You know, dancer without a club. That thing, that thing put me in a physical state where I was looking at myself in a mirror and not digging what I was seeing. Look, I ain't gonna lie. This ass is vain (Sommer laughs). And vanity serves its purpose, you know? I'm not fat shaming or none of that, but that food is not for me. So as far as I'm concerned, this... You know, my mama has a saying, uh-
Sally Sommer: You, she said it was your temple.
Archie Burnett: She said it was my temple.
Sally Sommer: But she was use, she was using that from a Seventh Day Adventist point of view.
Archie Burnett: Hmm. But I interpret it different. She said, "Your, your..." She said, "Your body's your temple. You keep it happy, you keep it healthy, and you keep it holy."
Sally Sommer: But— It was the holy part.
Archie Burnett: The holy part.
Sally Sommer: You and she—
Archie Burnett: It was her.
Sally Sommer: ...had different definitions—
Archie Burnett: You doggone right, girl...
Sally Sommer: …of what was holy.
Archie Burnett: Yeah. You doggone right, girl. Because we were laughing the other day. My church, not church, my chuch (Sommer laughs). My chuch. Your chuch. My chuch.
Sally Sommer: Your chuch, yeah.
Archie Burnett: Just boom, boom, bam, ba-lam, bam, ba-boom. That's my chuch, you know? And, um, it's not blasphemous, people. You can take what you want, but for me, it saved my life, and I will be forever grateful.
[Music interlude]
Sally Sommer: Okay. You're teaching House all over the world.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Sally Sommer: And house really is reliant upon the social system of the club.
Archie Burnett: Yes. Because—
Sally Sommer: it—Or—
Archie Burnett: It should be…
Sally Sommer: It should be. Have you been able to affect any sort of change in... I'm, I'm really talking about the European kids who never had an opportunity to even—
Archie Burnett: Yeah.
Sally Sommer: ...experience what it is.
Archie Burnett: Okay, I'm gonna say it exactly like this. The disconnect is this. If you, if you're not grown in club culture, what you're doing becomes a skill. You can create anything that you want, but when you go so far from the root, and there's no connection to that root, it becomes something else. So don't say that this is that, because it's not. Now mind you, yes, movement changes throughout time. Connection is the thing that stays the same and stays relevant. You don't, you don't dance just for dancing sake. No. Not, not for a head that's, that grew in this culture, you know? For instance, if, let's say kids—
Sally Sommer: Well, it's because dancing means something much bigger to you than it means to a studio dancer,
Archie Burnett: Okay.
Sally Sommer: for example.
Archie Burnett: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Sally Sommer: Because for you, it means the social scene, and it means the exchanges that happen on the floor.
Archie Burnett: Yes, exactly.
Sally Sommer: And that's what it's about. But, but I have to say this. And it's not about perfecting this move.
Archie Burnett: No. No. No, never. Never. You, you, you, you know what a familiar feeling is in repeating the feeling when it hits you, but like, in, in, in this piece that what I'm doing here for Jacob's Pillow, you know, the youngest member we have here is Marianhos. She's in the commu- sh- the commercial world, but at the same time, she was raised with all of that stuff.
Sally Sommer: Oh, it shows.
Archie Burnett: With that.
Sally Sommer: What a beautiful dancer, my God.
Archie Burnett: Which, which puts you in a different lane.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: But here's the thing. If, once again, if everybody says the sky is blue, and Marianhos sees that the sky has white clouds in it, is she gonna make her life easier by just saying, "Hey, the sky is blue," so that everybody kinda like—
Sally Sommer: Right.
Archie Burnett: …you don't get the chance to, to do blah, blah, blah. Because you have that special sauce that makes things work, you know?
Sally Sommer: Well—
Archie Burnett: Sometimes you gotta be the lone wolf.
Sally Sommer: Okay. Have you been able to change any of those—
Archie Burnett: You're damn right 'cause every opportunity—
Sally Sommer: ...those kids?
Archie Burnett: ...I get, I…
Sally Sommer: I know you preach it...
Archie Burnett: I let them kids have it.
Sally Sommer: Well, I know you preach it, but do they—
Archie Burnett: Hmm.
Sally Sommer: ...take it to heart and do it?
Archie Burnett: I do it like this. Some who do, they get the aha moment. Some you don't, it's like this, "Well, you missed the memo." 'Cause I realize my job is not to save everybody. The deal is this, if you're smart enough and open enough to do that, 'cause sooner or later you're gonna hit that plateau. There's somebody always younger, s- stronger, faster—
Sally Sommer: Oh, yeah...
Archie Burnett: …more beautiful, more in depth.
Sally Sommer: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Archie Burnett: What are you gonna do—
Sally Sommer: They hit…
Archie Burnett: …it so fast... when they take you down from your throne? You— Right. Let me tell you something, I, a great story. Serial Steppers.
Sally Sommer: Mm-hmm.
Archie Burnett: Yukson, he did his first show with me in, in France when he was 16 years old. Now, he belongs to Wanted Posse. He's like a battle cat, battle cat. You know what started to happen, when he got into... And, and it was eventual. After doing all of those battles, he was left unfulfilled. He was... Now, mind you, he was growing up in the dance culture because they got stage sessions and all of that stuff, just like how we did in New York. They session... But he realized, just like you're gonna come to that point, it's gonna leave you empty because you still have to come back to the well. Yeah, you can do your little battle this, that and the other, but you know what? Here's the thing that pisses me off in Europe, and I'ma say it like that. When these kids make these events, I'm the reason why when I go to those events they have parties after the damn event.
Sally Sommer: I know, I know. I know.
Archie Burnett: I'm the reason for that shit. I know, I know. Because these kids, they... And I tell the organizers, "You can't be doing that." These kids saying, "Oh, I'm the culture. I'm the culture. This is the culture." You don't go to a battle, do the battle, and go home. What? No. Here's the thing, for us, the meet and greet is the club. For them, the meet and greet is the battle.
Sally Sommer: Well, you know, I think the reason why it got started—
Archie Burnett: Mm...
Sally Sommer: …in Europe is that they never had that social underpinning.
Archie Burnett: At all. At all.
Sally Sommer: Therefore, all it could be is to pick it up from the outside, to pick up the movements literally—
Archie Burnett: Mm...
Sally Sommer: …from the outside.
Archie Burnett: I mean, that's logical.
Sally Sommer: So then what you're left with is how well can you do those movements? And guess what? I can do the movements better than you, and then we get the competitions, and that's the way I think it grew.
Archie Burnett: That makes sense. That makes sense.
Sally Sommer: Because what else did they have?
Archie Burnett: Well, yeah. That's true.
Sally Sommer: You know? They didn't, they didn't have the club scene.
Archie Burnett: Well, nothing. We're not hating, we're just stating. Get that right (Sommer laughs). Okay. Anyway.
Sally Sommer: Anyway.
Archie Burnett: Mm-hmm. No, I gotta make that clear— But— ...'cause so, you know, this goes down into analysts, they go, "But, oh, like these old cast, they just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Nah. Uh-uh. You know? The thing is, you know, real hurts. Reality hurts. Deal with it. Period.
Sally Sommer: Yeah, but the, you know, what I'm asking is—
Archie Burnett: Mm...
Sally Sommer: …it's not that it's invalid, it's their validity—
Archie Burnett: Mm.
Sally Sommer: ...and that's the way they do it and that's the way they judge it. It is not my cup of tea.
Archie Burnett: Of course.
Sally Sommer: It's not your cup of tea.
Archie Burnett: Of course.
Sally Sommer: Although you're asked to judge.
Archie Burnett: Mm.
Sally Sommer: So how do you do that, sir?
Archie Burnett: Well, well, I do this. I say, "Listen." I tell the kids all the time—
Sally Sommer: You're gonna be judging them...
Archie Burnett: No, I'm saying, "I'm very honored that you're asking me to judge you, but here's the deal. I couldn't give a damn if you win a prize or this, and my job is to get you open. Because the thing is, my job is to make sure that whatever the thing you're doing, you're having a real emotional connection with what you're doing. Don't do the love me, love me show." Anybody who's a judge or has any weight in the culture knows it's about this. It's not about the outside thing, it's about this. And you can tell a dancer when a dancer's going in. You can feel a dancer way in the back when a dancer's going. Here's the thing, when you take away the feeling from this thing, it becomes a skill. Anybody can learn a skill. Not everybody can dance.
Sally Sommer: No, it's very true. And I mean, I think, I think when it becomes the perfection of a step—
Archie Burnett: Absolutely.
Sally Sommer: ...of a move, of a this, then that's when it gets—
Archie Burnett: Absolutely.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: Now I'm gonna tell you this, now the utopian idea is if the two can meld, and you're able to manipulate what you do in perfection with a real feeling, that is like—
Sally Sommer: Yes.
Archie Burnett: …an, a utopian situation.
Sally Sommer: Yes.
Archie Burnett: That's the, the, the thing, let's say, to strive for. But, but right now, if it's, if it's, well, let's say generally right now, people are either on one side of the spectrum or the other side of the spectrum.
Sally Sommer: Where do you see it going?
Archie Burnett: Oh, I see it going to the emotional. I do.
Sally Sommer: You do?
Archie Burnett: If there are enough of us around, which there are, letting the kids know that it's the social. This thing about you over there and you over there, no, no, no, no, no. The kids are starting to party together.
Sally Sommer: Well, you bring them to party together.
Archie Burnett: Absolutely.
Sally Sommer: And then hopefully they maintain that.
Archie Burnett: But you know what I've learned? And you, you taught me this in your class. You have to have different generations in a room.
Sally Sommer: Right.
Archie Burnett: 'Cause if you don't have different generations—
Sally Sommer: Right.
Archie Burnett: …in a room, you can't connect the dots, even subliminally.
Sally Sommer: Mm-hmm.
Archie Burnett: You know? That's why the Hustle is so important, because Hustle is getting the kids now... You know, the first time they see this stuff, they lose their mind. What is that? What is that? The first time you get twirled, you lose your mind.
Sally Sommer: Did I, did I ever tell you how Sugar Sullivan defined the hustle? Because you know she was the Lindy Hop champion.
Archie Burnett: How did she define it?
Sally Sommer: Oh, Sugar, Sugar says, "That Hustle, that Hustle is just the Lindy Hop cut down to quarter time." (laughs)
Archie Burnett: Come on, mama. Come on, mama. Come... She's a big Lindy Hopper, this one (Sommer laughs). You know, it's, it's the thing, man. It's the thing. So, so... But, but once again, when, when, when there's touch involved and the exchanging of energies and the listening to your partner, it just changes you. It, it puts a reality of, of you being alive and all this other good stuff. It's going that way. It is. Because these battles, every time they invite me, I change something about it. For instance, in the Waacking battles, they never, until I did that, and I made sure I did that, make them dance together. They go like this, "Oh, you go. You do your one. Oh, you go. You do yours. Okay, who has the better round? Okay, fine. You win, you win. Second round, you win, you win." And then it was so funny. I go, "Stop, stop, stop." They go, "What?" "You and you, y'all are dancing together." They said, "Uh, uh, uh, uh, what?" I said, "No, you're dancing with each other, not at each other." They went, "Oh, okay." And as soon as that happens—
Sally Sommer: So it's about exchanging…
Archie Burnett: ….the whole crowd—
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: ...loses their mind 'cause they see the magic happen.
Sally Sommer: Mm-hmm.
Archie Burnett: I say, "See, this is the thing that's missing, because this was done in the club, guys—
Sally Sommer: Right, right, right, right...
Archie Burnett: …with people and you're having a real exchange."
Sally Sommer: Oh, yeah.
Archie Burnett: You're doing all that, that little fake boxy stuff, trying to get the crowd to do this, the crowd to do that. Look, it's about listening. Do you listen to your partner? If you're just trying to... And you're ignoring your partner, as far as I'm concerned, you just lost that, because you have to make this magic happen. It's not a one-sided thing. So for me, it's who's listening more, it's who's engaged in the story more.
Sally Sommer: Yeah.
Archie Burnett: I mean, so I see it going to where it's supposed to go with this generation, in the time that they're living, with the vocabulary that they know. Because obviously, they can't live the life that I lived.
Sally Sommer: Mm-hmm.
Archie Burnett: But their life is very real and it's very valid, and it's gonna be even more valid when you get away from the fake and use your reality where you are in your time right now.
[Music begins, composed and performed by Jess Meeker]
Norton Owen: That's it for this episode of Pillow Voices. Thank you for joining us today. On behalf of Jacob's Pillow, we look forward to sharing more dance with you through the films, essays, and podcasts at danceinteractive.jacobspillow.org. And of course, through live experiences during our festival and throughout the year. Special thanks to the National Endowment for the Arts for helping launch this podcast series. Please subscribe to Pillow Voices wherever you get your podcasts and visit us again soon, either online or on site.