A listening portrait of Judith Jamison, drawn from her many years at Jacob’s Pillow. Hosted by Christian Warner, this episode centers on excerpts from a 2012 PillowTalk, capturing Jamison’s voice, wit, and presence alongside reflections of her wide-ranging work as a performer, teacher, and director.
Judith Jamison dancing in 1988 at Jacob's Pillow on Dance Interactive
Linda Celeste Sims performing Cry in 2007 at Jacob's Pillow on Dance Interactive
Learn more about host Christian Warner
[Music begins, composed by J.S. Bach, performed by Jess Meeker]
Norton Owen: Welcome to PillowVoices, a production of Jacob’s Pillow Dance Festival with content from the Pillow archives and from our artistic community. I’m Norton Owen, the Pillow’s Historian and Founding Director of Preservation. This episode is hosted by Christian Warner, an interdisciplinary performing artist, choreographer, director, and sound designer who join us to a celebrate the life of Judith Jamison.
Ms. Jamison had many meaningful connections to Jacob’s Pillow from debut in 1974 up until her death 50 years later. She engaged with us as a dancer, choreographer, teacher, company director, board member, speaker and so much more. She’s represented in the Pillow archives by performances, master classes, interviews, recipes, and board minutes and of course we have an autographed copy of her memoir entitled Dancing Spirit. The students, audiences and fellow artists who were influenced by her are legion. Today we’ll hear Ms. Jamison’s own words, her infectious laughter and her incomparable life force in excerpts from a 2012 Pillow Talk titled which I was privileged to moderate entitled “Judith Jamison’s Dancing Life.”
[Jazzy number begins]
Christian Warner: What defines a dancing spirit? Is it the number of performances an artist has achieved? The prolonged hours of rigor that condition the body in service of a maker’s vision? Or is it that very rigor, the force that allows the dancing body to transmute hardship and remain undeterred by circumstance?
My own journey began humbly, in church, through praise dancing and singing in the choir where I first experienced the power of the expressive body, even before I had the language to name it. At 9 years old, I was granted the once in a lifetime opportunity to leave home for a national tour and eventually make my broadway debut at 13 years old. My grandmother, Joy, and I were gifted tickets to see the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater for the first time, an experience she still refers to as “the day I changed.”I was immediately convinced that I needed to find the nearest ballet barre. But that night, the curb outside the stage door would have to suffice, as we waited for a chance to thank whoever might emerge after the performance. And then, out walked Judith Jamison. I was too young to fully understand who she was at that moment, but my grandmother did. I’ll never forget how she paused to speak with us before continuing on her way. That brief encounter became a catalyst, solidifying my decision to pursue dance training, and eventually, a professional career.
I can recognize my own dancing spirit as something shaped not only by the generosity of the performance I witnessed that night, but by those few shared moments with a woman whose legacy would later reveal itself as foundational to my own access and to that of so many of my contemporaries. I am eager to add my voice to the chorus of gratitude for her life, labor, and the legacy she leaves behind that continues to guide what is possible for artists to come. Please join me in listening to her journey firsthand.
Judith Jamison: I'm having a wonderful time revisiting the Pillow, because I was on this board, and then I came back and forth and taught, and I used to feed my students sweet potato pie [audience laughs], and, and smoked chicken wings and stuff like that when I had a house in Connecticut, and that w- that was the reward at the end, not, not during, you know? [audience laughs] And, um, there, there's just such a wonderful tradition here that I love, that you've helped... sustain.
Norton Owen: Thank you.
Judith Jamison: You know? There are so many people that have helped to sustain this, this marvelous institution. And the students that I have right now are just remarkable. They're amazing, because they haven't had certain techniques yet, but all of a sudden I'm slam dunking them into Dunham-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm
Judith Jamison: …and into Horton technique And they are like sponges, like young people are supposed to be, but they are incredible. And I can't wait for the performance, as we call it, process, right? You call it a proc [Owen laughs]. I remember when that word got into the vocabulary of dance [audience laughs]. It's a process you seeing there? You're gonna see a performance tomorrow. We, we're processing down there, and we're gonna process into performance tomorrow, so I hope to see all of you. 'Cause as soon as you get an audience in front of you, and you are on a stage, are you not performing? [audience laughs] Are you not? You are ...
Norton Owen: I, I think, I think we're seeing that right here, are we not? [audience laughs]
[Owen laughs]
Judith Jamison: That's so true.
Christian Warner: From the opening pages of her book, it’s clear that Ms. Jamison carried a deep awareness of her lineage, and a corresponding sense of responsibility to honor and extend it. Born in Philadelphia in 1943 to parents who came of age in the segregated South, she understood early on that hard work was not optional, but essential to navigating her world in the years following World War II and during the Great Migration.
And yet, she describes her childhood as “a great time.” Growing up in Philly, she was immersed in a vibrant and evolving cultural landscape, particularly within Black Philadelphia, which was thriving amid expanding opportunities. It was through her parents’ commitment to exposing her to art and culture that she encountered her first ballet teacher, Marion Cuyjet: a pivotal figure who would help shape the trajectory of her life in dance and model the resilience required for Black dancers to claim space within the field. Here, Ms. Jamison shares about her early training and influences.
Norton Owen: To start off at the very beginning because, um, because, because [audience laughs] you talked about in your book, uh, you said that you felt that you really had three parents, your mother, your father, and Marion Cuyjet.
Judith Jamison: Oh, yeah.
Norton Owen: So I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that first teacher.
Judith Jamison: Anybody from Philadelphia here? Anybody, any Philadelphians? Okay, so you, you know, um, um
Unknown speaker: All the way in the back.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: All right. All right. All right. Homies [audience laughs]. Okay. Yeah. Homie. Okay. Yes. So, um, my parents put me in dancing school when I was six years old because I think I was born with a 36-inch inseam. I have... you know [everyone laughs]. I mean, my, my legs were so long, my arms were so long. And, um, I also was, um, knock-kneed and pigeon-toed, and I had corrective shoes, right? So, um, Mother and Dad put me in the Judimar School of Dance, and that was Marion Cuyjet's school. Marion Cuyjet had red hair, green eyes, and white skin. She was a Black woman. And she was determined to have African American children be able to study ballet in Philadelphia. It was very difficult.
Norton Owen: Mm.
Judith Jamison: But I tell you because I had her training, which included ballet, ballet, ballet, ballet, ballet, because by the time I was 10, I was studying with Tudor, with Antony Tudor. I was a little 10-year-old protégé that was studying with... Somebody had to remind me of that.
Norton Owen: That's extraordinary.
Judith Jamison: You know what I'm saying? So Cecchetti I knew inside out and backwards, you know? And I learned Tap, thank goodness, because I ended up on Broadway with Gregory Hines.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm [everyone laughs].
Judith Jamison: Tapping. I learned Dunham technique, which she is the mother of us all, Ms. Dunham. I learned Oh gosh, well, acrobatics and found out I had no back [everyone laughs]. You know, that's a, that's a terrible thing to find out when you fi- you know, you do a cambre and you realize, "I can't cambre." [everyone laughs] You know what a cambre is? You know, if I bent back and, you know, bent back and... But I can hinge like crazy [everyone laughs]. I can do a hinge. A hinge is different. You know, that means you're going back like this. Right? Like that. So I could do that. I couldn't arch. I couldn't arch very well. So I learned all of these things…
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison:…under her roof.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Everything, and, and also tea dances.
Norton Owen: Hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know, she used to have tea dances on Saturday, and we had to wear our skirts, which I looked horrible in. The skirts, 'cause I had high waist, long legs, n- no waist, you know? And it was the era of the cinch belts and those poodle things on the [everyone laughs]... thing and it was horrible. It was horrible. But we had tea dances. You had to dance this far apart, and we had to wear gloves.
Norton Owen: Wow.
Judith Jamison: And the gentleman, you know. I mean, it was wonderful, wonderful way of growing up, besides learning how to play the piano from my father.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: The school gave us violins so that we could learn. My brother played the clarinet. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Norton Owen: And I learned something from the book that I hadn't realized, which was that Miss Marion's teacher was Essie Marie Dorsey-
Judith Jamison: Dorsey, yes ...
Norton Owen: …who had studied with Denishawn.
Judith Jamison: Yes.
Norton Owen: So, uh…
Judith Jamison: I know, it's connected [laughs].
Norton Owen: It's so connected ... yeah, it's all connected. Absolutely. So the school that Ted Shawn and Ruth St. Denis founded, in essence, was the, um, the school of your teacher's teacher.
Judith Jamison: Yes. For the ballet.
Norton Owen: That's- Yeah.
Judith Jamison: Absolutely.
Norton Owen: That's amazing.
Judith Jamison: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Norton Owen: And you also talked about having a shrine of photographs on your bedroom wall. Now tell us about that.
Judith Jamison: Freddie Franklin was one of them. Danilova was another one. And, uh, Carmen de Lavallade [audience: Ahh]... was the other one. But I, I mean, they were those old postcards that I don't know if you've ever seen them before, but everybody's like [everyone laughs]... Ahh, I mean, they look absolutely divine. They're, you know, who, who knew of all the postcards I had up there, if all of them could dance, but they sure knew how to take a picture.
Norton Owen: Yeah [everyone laughs].
Judith Jamison: You know? Uh, Tamara Toumanova was up there.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: Um, oh, Tanaquil.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: Um, uh. Just everybody was on that wall as I was growing up.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: But my, my connection with Carmen de Lavallade was Donald McKayle's choreography in a, a, a program that I think it would come on CBS, and it was Giancarlo Menotti's Amahl and the Night Visitors.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And Carmen used to dance in that production.
Norton Owen: And saw this on television as a child? Yeah
Judith Jamison: Every Christmas time I would see that.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: You know, when we got the television.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: That wasn't until a little bit late.
Norton Owen: Uh-huh.
Judith Jamison: You know? But still, I'm get... You know, to see your image in front of you on television.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: To see, oh my goodness, oh, there's a woman of color in front of me on…
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm
Judith Jamison:... doing this.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? It opens your eyes…
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison:...to the, the possibilities.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And Marion had already done that.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: And of course, my parents had given me the opportunity to see everything. There was the Philadelphia Art Museum, the Rodin Museum, you know?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Uh, it wasn't just Rocky standing up there going like this [audience laughs].
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: You know? There were wonderful, wonderful things happening in Philadelphia. My church, Mother Bethel AME Church, my goodness, I was born and raised in that church. I'm now a member of Abyssinian Baptist Church, but you know, I grew up in that church.
Norton Owen: But those resources, I mean, I think it's, it's, um, appropriate to mention that Ms. Marion had to fight pretty hard to make sure that she had a school.
Judith Jamison: Oh, yes.
Norton Owen: That, that, yeah, that because, uh, you talked about her ha- being evicted
Judith Jamison:And having to move.
Norton Owen: Every time.
Judith Jamison: We moved about six times in, in maybe 10 years because, you know, this woman, she'd get her foot in the door, everybody thought everything was all right, and then all these little Black ballerinas would come in back behind her [audience laughs], and then that door would slam shut so quickly that...And but she was the first African American woman to rent space in downtown Philadelphia.
Norton Owen: And she was absolutely committed to that. Yes. So much so that she kept going back and…
Judith Jamison: Absolutely. Yeah.
Christian Warner: Despite facing repeated evictions masked by landlord’s attempts to avoid civil infractions, Cuyjet remained steadfast in her commitment to teaching. Through her tutelage, Ms. Jamison came to understand that dancers were not as she quotes “hybrid creatures that dropped from the sky with no relation to the earth,” but whole human beings who were deeply connected to the world around them. Within this framework, the dance space became sacred. To step onstage was not simply to perform, but to represent something larger than oneself, an understanding that echoed the values her parents had already instilled in her previously. By the age of 14, her discipline had already evolved into teaching, working with younger students and setting her on a path that would soon bring her into the orbit of Agnes de Mille. Next, we’ll hear Norton ask her about how that came to be.
Norton Owen: I wanna ask you about your debut was as Myrtha in Giselle at the age of 15?
Judith Jamison: Yes. Yeah.
Norton Owen: In, in Philadelphia.
Judith Jamison: Yeah, yeah.
Norton Owen: So you were still-
Judith Jamison: That picture's in the book too.
Norton Owen: Yeah, it is [everyone laughs]. Thank you for recreating it for us.
Judith Jamison: Right?
Norton Owen: Yeah [laughs].
Judith Jamison: No, but I was so serious. You know? I was s- when I was 14, I was teaching nine-year-olds.
Norton Owen: Uh-huh.
Judith Jamison: I was teaching ballet to nine-year-olds, right?
Norton Owen: That's fantastic. Wow.
Judith Jamison: And that's when I found out what a ferocious teacher I was. I'm, and, uh, you know, you can vouch for that, right? [Owen laughs] Yeah. Yeah, you...We have a student over there.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm
Judith Jamison:...that's, uh, I'm surprised you're sitting [Everyone laughs]. But in, in, in any event, uh, I, I was…
Norton Owen: But then-
Judith Jamison:...a real task master.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: Still am.
Norton Owen: So then, so tell us, uh, de Mille taught a guest class in…
Judith Jamison: Yeah, I was going to the Philadelphia Dance Academy, which is now the University of the Arts, and there was the Philadelphia Music Academy and Dance Academy, and we ran back and forth between…
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm
Judith Jamison: …both places. So one evening, she was teaching a master class. I was exhausted. I had been taking classes all day long. I'm not interested. I'm not interested. Me, not interested in Agnes de Mille, right? Loving her, her work, loving everything she was doing. And, uh, she came. I said, "Uh..." Somebody dragged me to the class. They said, "Come on, you have to take this one." I took the class, and at the end of the class she said, "Would you like to come and, uh, be a guest artist with a ballet that I'm reviving with Ballet Theater with Carmen de Lavallade as the lead?" [Everyone laughs] And I just said…
Norton Owen: And you said, "Let me think it over." Yeah.
[Everyone laughs]
Judith Jamison: E- easiest answer in the world.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: Sure. And I still didn't realize the, the…
Norton Owen: Yeah
Judith Jamison:...monumental-ness of the, of that experience.
Norton Owen: Well, it's interesting for me too to read about this, uh, and, and hear de Mille saying that this master class that she taught, most of the people in the class were fairly ordinary, and then she said, "And this one girl was astonishing." So clearly she saw something there.
[Everyone laughs]
Judith Jamison: She did.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: I don't know what, because it... What was wonderful, it was because we were doing, uh, walk, skip, jump. I mean, the simplest things in the world. Nothing, nothing, but those are some of the most important things that a dancer can do. Walk, skip, run, stand still.
Norton Owen: Hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? Very impor- if you can't do those, then, you know, I don't care if you can do, you know, your 32 fouettés. You know what I'm saying? Or if you can do a lateral until, a laterals position where you just tilt all the way over, lateral T position, and hold it in relevé, and do all kinds of... roll the head [audience laughs]. Do- I don't care whether you do all that. If you don't know how to put weight to stillness, if you don't know how to put energy in, in, in clear space when you run, if you don't know how to make curves out of sh- out of, out of the sky, out of what we don't... see, you create. You know, it's such a treasure to be a dancer.
Norton Owen: Hmm.
Judith Jamison: Such a treasure, and you're born that way, you know?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: I, I might not be able to still, you know, carry the umbrella and do this [everyone laughs], which I know y'all enjoy seeing me do this. I know that. I might not be able to do that the way I did, but it's always in me, and it's always in me to pass, to, along, pass along to each generation what I know. But what a gift to be able to do whatever you do.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? And do it excellently, which is what we're going to do tomorrow.
[Everyone laughs]
[Jazzy music begins]
Christian Warner: My grandmother Joy frequently reminded me growing up that if cared for, your talents will continue to make room for you. Ms. Jamison’s gifts soon drew the attention of legends such as Carmen de Lavallade and Geoffrey Holder, who took her under their wing after she secured her first guest contract in New York with American Ballet Theatre. She appeared in The Four Marys alongside Cleo Quitman, Glory Van Scott, and de Lavallade: an experience that marked a pivotal shift, expanding not only her dance career but also the social and artistic circles she moved within. And yet, this ascent did not shield her from a truth familiar to many artists: what rises must also fall. However, Ms. Jamison’s openness to the pivots of her journey allowed what once appeared to be failure to reveal itself as an even greater gift. Here, Ms. Jamison describes navigating her premiere with American Ballet Theatre.
Judith Jamison: That ballet was specifically about a Southern couple with four slaves, and the master fell in love with that gorgeous slave, and that just made a mess of a dramatic ballet. It was, it was The Four Marys. As I say, she was the fourth Mary. But after my, took my first plane ride to Chicago on a Pan Am Clipper [everyone laughs]. Four propellers, yeah, okay? At my first opera house, that was the first time I danced, uh, at Dance The State Theatre, and then I danced at the opera. After that, the gig was up. That was it. There were no Black people running around in ballet theater. That was it.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: That was it. So I went to the log flume ride at the Texas Pavilion at the World's Fair, and I pushed buttons, you know, and changed levels of water, so you would come out a little bit wetter when I was operating [everyone laughs]. And I worked with 400 Texans and Floridians, students.
Norton Owen: Uh-huh.
Judith Jamison: It was, it was a wonderful experience. And then after that, you know that I went to an audition because a wonderful woman, who was the pianist for American Ballet Theatre named Martha Johnson, sent me to an audition that Donald McKayle was giving for Harry Belafonte. It was a Harry Belafonte special about Roaring '20s. There was a story so similar with the Men Dancers. You all were fabulous the other day [Owen laughs]. Did y'all see them? Did you see the men, the, the, the [unclear word]? Oh, my gosh [audience applauds]. But I have... it, there's a similar story-
Norton Owen: Hmm.
Judith Jamison: .. where somebody turned up in a, in a completely different outfit. Who was that? They were in a complete...I showed up with, with, uh, leg warmers, right, that I had made myself, very, very nice. They happened to be pale green [audience laughs]. And pink ballet slippers, the tights, a little skirt, and my leotard. And-
Norton Owen: And you had been operating the log flume ride…
Judith Jamison: Log flume ride... And I had not take-
Norton Owen: Yeah
Judith Jamison:...taken class in three months.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: Um, still no excuse, I was terrible at the audition [audience member laughs]. But- The, uh, they, people showed up with lashes out to here [everyone laughs]... wigs, stilettos, you know, the whole nine yards, you know?
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: And I'm going, like, tendu at the barre and, and people are bumping and doing [everyone laughs].. all kinds of stuff. And I'm going like, "Okay, what is this?" [everyone laughs] And a wonderful woman who turned into an actor, Paula... Paula... I'll think of her name. Anyway..
Norton Owen: Paula- Kelly?
Judith Jamison: Paula Kelly. Thank you.
Norton Owen: Uh-huh.
Judith Jamison: Paula Kelly was demonstrating. Have you ever seen Paula Kelly dance? This woman, oh, my goodness. She- fantastic dancer, incredible dancer. She was demonstrating. So I was so fascinated by the movement she was doing, I didn't learn a thing. I didn't get it. I didn't understand what step one, two, hold, three, four, five, six... I'm used to ballet terminology, so I want you to say glissade to me, assemblé, entrechat [Owen laughs], royal, pas de chat- ... arabesque [Owen laughs], passé, contretemps. You know, I want, I wanna hear that vocabulary. No, this was one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine, 10, and mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm [Everyone laughs] And I'm in that groove, but I don't know what they're doing. [Everyone laughs]. So I failed miserably.
Norton Owen: And you said that Donnie kept you in the-
Judith Jamison: Donnie was such a gentleman to me, because he kept me in the, the audition to the last cut. For all I know, he had been saying, "Thank you very much," but I didn't understand, "Thank you very much [everyone laughs]…time to go." So I was still there.
Norton Owen: You're welcome. I'm still here. Yeah [laughs].
Judith Jamison: So, so anyway, anyway, down to it, he kept me to the last cut. I went running out of the... Not running, but I was... You know, being the drama queen that I am, I went out, up these steps, and there was a man sitting on the side of the steps. And I went across the street to call my mom in Philadelphia on a payphone, and I called her and got my little change out and said, "Mom," you know, "boo-hoo, boo-hoo, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I have to stay here," blah blah blah blah blah blah. And three days... It was either two days or three days later, I get a call saying, um, "My name's Alvin Ailey. Would you like to join my company?"
Norton Owen: And he was the man who was sitting there on the way…
Judith Jamison: That's the man that was sitting on the steps [audience: Ohhh] [audience laughs]. You know, everything… the universe is in order, you know?
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: Every- it's all right. It's all right. We're supposed to be where we're supposed to be. You know?
Norton Owen: Yeah. Well, you were definitely where you were supposed to be that day.
Judith Jamison: That's right.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Christian Warner:She recalls that she “didn’t know what was going to happen next,” but held a deep faith that her life was guided. At the same time, she committed herself to studying, absorbing as much as she could about dance, theatre, and the arts. That growth, she notes, came through patience. It’s a reminder she often offered to younger artists, especially those anxious about where their lives and careers might lead in the early stages. Let’s listen to Ms. Jamison as she provides more insight on the incredible efforts of sustainability when she first joined Alvin Ailey American Dance Theatre.
Norton Owen: So joining the Alvin Ailey Company would sound, seem like, oh, well now you've got it made, but in those days that really wasn't necessarily the case. This was…
Judith Jamison: No, 'cause everybody was working around doing nine different things. Am I right, Arthur?
Norton Owen: Yeah, yeah.
Judith Jamison: Everybody had 10 different jobs [laughs].
Norton Owen: Well, you-
Judith Jamison: You know? Mm.
Norton Owen: In, in, in your book you talk about the frustrations during that time and, and how Alvin was working so hard just to get bookings-
Judith Jamison: Oh, well
Norton Owen:...to keep it together.
Judith Jamison: Yes.
Norton Owen: Um, so this wasn't necessarily just because you got in the company wasn't like, "Oh, well I'm set now. I'm in the Ailey company."
Judith Jamison: Plus we w- it wasn't unionized.
Norton Owen: Mm.
Judith Jamison: You know, so that meant you worked like, um, you know how I gave you all that break today? I see some more dancers in here. You know how I gave you that break, you know, go get some water. No, you just kinda worked until you got tired, you know? Everybody just kept pushing till you got it, and that might have been four hours later.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And then you just kinda, you know, sat down for a little bit, and then we all just jumped back up together and went all into, you know. But watching, sitting there on 65th Street... Does 65th Street go east?
Norton Owen: No, ‘cuz it goes…
Judith Jamison: West? West Okay, it was 66th Street. There's now something there. There used to be an apartment, brownstones there-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: between, uh, Columbus Avenue and Central Park West, right?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: So that's where his little apartment was, and Jimmy Truitt was living there, too. James Truitt, who's also been to the Pillow.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm
Judith Jamison: .. and of course, Mr. Ailey, of course. And I stayed on their couch for a little bit, you know, 'cause I was in between houses again. And I watched Alvin one night, um, at his desk with papers all over it, uh, calling people up trying to get us bookings, and there were only... When I joined the company, there were 10 of us.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And he was calling to try to get bookings, and then when we would perform, it would be like six weeks of one-night stands and stop. And then six weeks of one-night, or four weeks of one-night stands, and then stop. And we'd get these little envelopes, and in the envelopes would either be money, witg like $5 or $25, or "Thank you very much." [audience laughs] Which was just fine. It was fine. You know, when we opened up, we figured out what to do, you know? But we loved Alvin, and we still do, you know?
Christian Warner: Ms. Jamison frequently reflects on the sacrifices made by Alvin Ailey and his dancers in their efforts to sustain the company and gain recognition and access. She recalls that his laughter was contagious, yet she sometimes wondered if it carried traces of pain born from the frustration of knowing what the company could have been, but wasn’t yet able to realize. The realities were stark. Dancers performed on unsuitable stages that left them with injuries and illness, arrests abroad, loading and unloading their own planes, and the list goes on. During one tour to Barcelona, they ran out of money, fracturing not only the tour but their housing stability. And by 1967, the State Department sent the company to Africa as unofficial cultural ambassadors, an opportunity layered with both promise and pressure. She describes having to constantly keep in mind that despite the difficulties, they were representing something bigger than themselves and would adapt accordingly, emphasizing their refusal to be deterred.
The driving force was simple: to keep the company alive. They believed that Alvin Ailey had something essential to offer the world and as his dancers, they were responsible for carrying that message forward. A message rooted in the belief that humanity connects us, regardless of where we are or who we are performing for. In spite of every hardship, they held onto that belief. They had faith in him, and in the purpose of his work that guided them all.
Ms. Jamison’s professional dancing years placed her within an expansive and illustrious artistic community. Throughout her reflections in Dancing Spirit, she constantly uplifts the artists who shaped her journey, whether through direct training, deep admiration, or unlikely collaborations across genres.
In recalling her time alongside Mikhail Baryshnikov, she praises not only his technical brilliance, but his courage to step beyond the confines of classical training and immerse himself in other movement languages. It was this openness, she suggests, that contributed to the almost otherworldly presence he carried as a performer, a quality she similarly attributes to Alvin Ailey himself. Here, Ms. Jamison reflects more deeply on her admiration for the intelligence of dancers.
Norton Owen: One of the things that I've seen in the archives at Ailey also are pictures of you with, uh, Mikhail Baryshnikov. That was an interesting partnership that…
Judith Jamison: That, I thought that was cute [audience laughs].
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: No, but you know, he, he, I don't know what, you know, I, I don't even recognize him sometimes. Sometimes he's standing right next to me, like in an elevator, and he'll look up and go, "Hi, Judy." Like that [everyone laughs].
Judith Jamison: I'm going to go, "Who is this?" You know? But, uh, yeah, Misha, you know, I give Misha credit, um, because he, I mean, you know, I, I went on tour with him. Gelsey and I went on tour with him in Vienna at one point, and it was Misha and friends. And this, I watched him from the side, from stage left, and he was doing Corsair, and I wanted to run away. There was so much power and so much focus and, and so much otherworldlylikeness. to him when he performed.
Norton Owen: Hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? Alvin was the same way.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You, you know, just it, it, the floor, you know, they rose from the floor. They were off the floor.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know what I'm saying? On the floor, but off the floor.
Norton Owen: Hmm.
Judith Jamison: Um, and Misha had a great sense of humor. Um, I give him credit for being classically trained and then trying to step into the lateral world.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Trying to step into, uh, Dunham and, and a little Graham here, a little, you know, uh, it, it was Pas de Deux, that was the name of, of the piece.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And-
Norton Owen: With Ellington.
Judith Jamison: that was, oh, Ellington. There was a total marriage between Ailey and Ellington. But that was, could you imagine, uh, that's why I say when dancers, when you are truly a dancer, you can do anything You can do anything. You can move any way, you know? And I give him credit for having the cojones to go out there and do it.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Just come out there and be on stage with me [everyone laughs]. Oh, giant sized Judith Jamison. He rose to the occasion.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: I cannot say enough for him.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And I also cannot say enough about also Sasha Goodnov.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison:...who I also worked with.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And working, um, The River on American Ballet Theatre with Eric Bruhn.
Norton Owen: Mm.
Judith Jamison: and Natasha.
Norton Owen: So you were assisting…
Judith Jamison: I was assisting Alvin.
Norton Owen: ...Alvin Ailey, uh, when he was creating The River for..
Judith Jamison: The River, yes
Norton Owen: ...ABT-
Judith Jamison: Yeah, yeah
Norton Owen:...with, with an original score by Duke Ellington.
Judith Jamison: Duke Ellington, yeah, yeah. Cynthia Gregory.
Norton Owen: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know, [unclear word], I was teaching her.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And Sally Wilson was in that. I mean, it goes on and on and on, the wonderful people that, uh, Mr. Ailey was able to connect with and make crossovers with them, you know?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Which just proves that whole idea, cap D.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You're a dancer, okay?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: But you are multi-layered.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? We can do many things. One of them is being smart. I haven't run into a dumb dancer yet-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: …that knows how to dance, right? Because you've gotta use all these faculties in order to get all this to move.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And then you have to have heart and soul.
Christian Warner: She soon made her Broadway debut in Sophisticated Ladies, where she performed for two years, further solidifying her place as an American dance icon. And yet, she is careful not to romanticize the experience. She speaks candidly about the demands of a Broadway schedule, challenging the notion that performing the same show eight times a week becomes monotonous. Instead, she emphasizes the necessity of presence, meeting each performance with renewed awareness. She describes it as “a meeting of spirit and mind,” where each night required not only an encounter with the audience, but with herself to ensure the work was delivered with clarity and intention, again and again, as if for the first time.
While the rigor was immense, the financial stability allowed her to purchase a home in Connecticut, one that became a gathering place for her artistic community, including Donna Wood, Ulysses Dove, and Milton Myers. After Sophisticated Ladies concluded, and having cultivated a sense of stability, Ms. Jamison was approached by Alvin Ailey to begin choreographing: first for scholarship students, and soon after, for the main company. She describes choreography as a profound extension of her practice: the ability to translate her inner thoughts and emotional life onto other bodies after years of embodied experience. As her choreographic voice began to mature, she founded the Jamison Project in 1988 with support from Jacob’s Pillow, alongside collaborators Liz Thompson, Josie Stamm, and Sam Miller. Let’s listen to Ms. Jamison speak more about her return to and eventual inheritance of the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theatre.
Norton Owen: But you came back to not-for-profit when you started the Jamison Project.
Judith Jamison: Yeah, that was great.
Norton Owen: That wa-
Judith Jamison: And- And I started, I, I, I s- I started the performances. I came here.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: I remember we rehearsed here.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Cause I remember staying down in those cabins.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? I didn't stay in those cabins. I stayed with this wonderful woman named Nancy Kolodner.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Thank goodness I knew Nancy [everyone laughs]. I got to know her, you know. I mean, goodness. Um, but yeah.
Norton Owen: You...And you-
Judith Jamison: That we had the, we had the experience 'cause all this was, the pathways weren't here.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: You know, the gravel wasn't down. If it rained, it was mud, you know, the whole nine yards.
Norton Owen: Well, and also part of this was happening outside of the regular season.
Judith Jamison: Yes.
Norton Owen: It was in September. I know that we have, we've got a, um, a video of the showing from…
Judith Jamison: Wow.
Norton Owen:...from Jamison Project-
Judith Jamison: Wow.
Norton Owen:...from September of 1988.
Judith Jamison: Wow.
Norton Owen: Yeah. And then soon after that in, I think it was November, you made your for- the Jamison Project made its formal debut at the Joyce Theater in New York.
Judith Jamison: Yes, we did. Yes, we did.
Norton Owen: And Alvin was there.
Judith Jamison: Yeah, and he, it, it, yeah, [laughs] he sure was there because when I went to hold the audition again, those dancers came to me and said, "Judy, Alvin asked me to join the Ailey Company [Owen laughs]. Do you mind if I go over?" Alvin [laughs].
Norton Owen: So-
Judith Jamison: He was sitting up in the back.
Norton Owen: He-
Judith Jamison: And people that he had turned down the whole time.
Norton Owen: Uh-huh.
Judith Jamison: It just, you know, goes, you know, it, it, it... You have to see people in different situations sometimes to understand just how talented they are.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know what I'm saying? So yeah. Um, um-
Norton Owen: And it was probably about that time that he asked you to take over the company, wasn't it?
Judith Jamison: It was in April of 1989.
Norton Owen: Of '89. Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: He had asked me to go on tour as a, he called me a guest associate.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And what he was doing was taking me all over the US tour, but I had a tour too, so I was going back and forth between two companies.
Norton Owen: You were doing both. Yeah.
Judith Jamison: I was dancing in the Jamison Project, and I was assisting Alvin along with Mr. Chaya, who's been there for…
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: 40 years…
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison:…as... Yeah, 40 years, right? [laughs]I know, and it creeps up on you [Owen laughs]. But, um, uh, yeah, and I w- and, and it was really, uh, it was in c- it was in St. Louis.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: There's a marvelous, uh, hotel inside the train station in St. Louis. But, uh, there's a mosaic in that train sta- You know what I'm talking about, right? It's so beautiful. I think it's a Hyatt or something like that in there. And there were restaurants inside, and he sat me down at the restaurant and said, "You know, I'm dying, and I want you to take over the company. Would you, would you do that?" Of course. Of course. Where we going? Of course. But I had coaches, you know, all up here. Nancy was one of them. Liz was one of them, you know? Um, I had people, Sam.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Sam Miller.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Um, to, to help me with this because I was gonna do it regardless, but I had to figure out how I was gonna merge-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: uh, or, you know, and do what I had to do with, with my company and Ailey company.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: That was difficult, but out of sheer love, of course, I was gonna take the company over.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: Of course.
Norton Owen: Well, it was an extraordinarily fast transition. He died on December 1st, and, and-
Judith Jamison: 1989.
Norton Owen: …and you were named his successor on December 20th, so-
Judith Jamison: On January 20th-
Norton Owen: Oh, January 20th...
Judith Jamison: by the board.
Norton Owen: The next... Oh.
Judith Jamison: But I was working already [Owen laughs]. I mean, that was a difficult time-
Norton Owen: Yeah. yeah
Judith Jamison:...because we buried him, we, we u- at St. John the Divine, about-
Norton Owen: Uh-huh.
Judith Jamison:...5,000 people showed up. They were all over. You were there, Arthur. You were there.
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: People just showed up all over the place. I remember, uh, a homeless woman walked down the center of the aisle. Do you remember that? And also people who didn't know people. We didn't know Alvin knew that person over there, that per-
Norton Owen:Mm.
Judith Jamison:… so it was like, "Whoa, who are you?"
Norton Owen:Mm.
Judith Jamison: "I knew Alvin."
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: "Da, da, da, I knew Alvin." You know? He's a marvelous man.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: But the season started maybe two weeks later-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: ...or a week later.
Norton Owen: Yeah, yeah, right, December 6th.
Judith Jamison: So we were on it.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Boom, we had to be on it. We had to come out of that morning, which we never did.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And the opening night-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm ...
Judith Jamison: um, at the end of it, uh, there was silence. The curtain came back up again. There was a huge photograph of Mr. Ailey, and we all placed white flowers one at a time down in front of him.
Norton Owen: Mm
Judith Jamison:…to say thank you.
Norton Owen: Mm. Well, you've said thank you in many, many ways-
Judith Jamison: Mm-hmm.
Norton Owen:...over the years in your stewardship of the company-
Judith Jamison: Mm-hmm.
Norton Owen: ...which has been a- an extraordinary, I think one of the most amazing, uh, second acts, let's say, for, for any company.
Judith Jamison: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Norton Owen: What you have seen through with the Ailey company during your tenure is remarkable. I wonder what, what is it that you're the proudest of?
Judith Jamison: The building. The building, you know?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison:Uh, the dancers.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know, because, I mean, the, the dancers are, are what draw you to what Ailey is about.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: The school then draws you, you know? Everything about the Ailey organization just draws you in. But I have also one of the most incredible boards [laughs]. I have. Like, you have an incredible... We-
Norton Owen: Mm.
Judith Jamison: Who do we celebrate today? Lorna?
Norton Owen: Lorna Strassner.
Judith Jamison: Right, right, right.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: So, and she's 30 years, right?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: That's right. So we have this board [laughs] that is just amazing, and many times I would have board meetings where we had just moved into our new spot on 61st Street, which is called Alvin Ailey Place still. It's on 61st Street between, uh, 10th and 11th.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And I walked in, and about two days after I walked in, I said, "We need a bigger place." So my board provided a second floor, so we had two floors instead of just one. This is rental space. We'd been in four places, 59th Street with Pearl Lang, 45th Street, the Minskoff, 61st Street. Too small. We're bulging out. And then finally, I had a board meeting and I said, "Hello? I need a building. I want a building," right? And everybody heard me…
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm [audience laughs].
Judith Jamison: You know what I'm saying? And all 77,000 square feet of it. Joan Weil is the chairman of my board, Henry McGee is the president of my board, and board members are...I, y- God bless all of y'all, 'cause you all have to put your money where your mouth is. You know what I'm saying? And when you do that [audience claps], and you support kids-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison:...you support the future of, of, of a company that's been around for 54 years now.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Is it more than 54 years? 1958-
Norton Owen: [laughs] Yeah.
Judith Jamison:...is when the company started.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know, God bless you, and also God bless the staffs, the development directors, my hats are off to you. Marketing people, my hats are off to you. Anyone that has to do with supporting, you know, the founda- Sharon Luckman is our executive director. Anybody that, that can hold up and-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: …brace up a future, and then make it able for an artistic director to just, just spread out.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know, just really, just, just really spread out, spread their wings, and make it possible for all these wonderful things to happen for the past, and for the present, and for the future.
[Jazzy music begins]
Christian Warner:I am propelled by the notion of Afrofuturism, what the National Museum of African American History and Culture describes as a framework for expressing Black identity, agency, and freedom through art, creative work, and activism that envisions liberated futures for Black life. I remain deeply inspired by the generative power of dancers who draw upon the intimacy of community to transmute hardship into legacy, offering something that future generations of movement artists can inherit and expand upon.
The cycle continues as dancers today adapt to an ever-evolving landscape of practice and performance. As the United States continues to negotiate its shared values, while confronting forces that threaten to undermine the progress forged by Ms. Jamison and her contemporaries, it becomes clear that the navigation she describes is not confined to the past. It remains instructive. The challenges may not be new, but they have shifted in form, reappearing in ways that demand renewed awareness, resilience, and imagination. And still, I witness work across companies, independent projects, and freelance spaces that courageously carries the baton forward, advancing the field through a deep commitment to community. This, too, is part of the relay: artists forging pathways together, again and again, ensuring that what has been built is not only preserved, but expanded with care and integrity. Let’s close with a few lasting words from Ms. Jamison on the transformative nature of dance and human connection.
Judith Jamison: You know, one of the men in Men's Dancers were talking about being specific about what you're trying to say. You're being clear about what you, you're trying to say, what your message is, what you're trying to say, and then what you have to say becomes universal. Because we're all, we're, we're all human beings.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: We're all human. We come from different cultures, but our hearts are still the same. Our, you know, the blood, the whole thing, we're all the same thing.
Norton Owen: Mm.
Judith Jamison: So but, but when you're specific, like we celebrate the Afro-American cultural expression and experience and the culture of our country, you know? We celebrate that. That involves everybody. It's a huge embrace.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And that's what Alvin wanted in the first place.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm. Well, you say such meaningful things about the place of dance in that there's a new documentary, Never Stand Still
Judith Jamison: Mm-hmm.
Norton Owen:…that you're very much a part of, and I think really you have some of, some of the best lines in the…
Judith Jamison: I do.
Norton Owen:…in the documentary, which of course I, the, I to call them lines is incorrect because you're speaking from your experience, and one of the things that you say is that “you have to touch the human spirit. Don't you? What's the point otherwise?”
Judith Jamison: Yeah. Yeah, what is it?
Norton Owen: Yeah.
Judith Jamison: I don't get it. It's too hard. Yeah. Ask them. They've been rehearsing all day.
Norton Owen: [Laughs]. Yeah. But what do you mean by that in terms of in, as an artist on stage that's somehow in, in touch with something?
Judith Jamison: I, I, I don't find it interesting unless you engage me, you know?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And engaging me might mean that you're just standing there, you know, even though I'm not too interested in watching you just stand there [Owen laughs]. But it might be just that. But to me, the... I don't understand the point of our expression unless you can be a, you can contact my innermost-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: sense. And that doesn't mean every time I see a dance I've gotta be, you know, like, "Oh, gosh, I'm so moved." I mean, sometimes the point of the dance is you don't wanna move me.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? But do something.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know what I'm saying?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: Uh, it's important because it's, it's the thing, it's... Well, I call it spiritual reciprocity. It's what has t- This has to happen.
Norton Owen: Hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? Otherwise, I'm on the stage, and you're out here, and you're sitting there, and you're wa- "Oh, how...That's really nice. How many turns can you do there?"
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: "How high can you raise that leg?" And da, da, da. And, and it's on the dancers also to be excellent, to have the root of fine technique, the best techniques that you could achieve because then you can fly into your excellence, all right?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And then your flying into your excellence will connect to remind me that I am also excellent. You know what I'm saying?
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: It, it, it'll, it'll touch me here, you know, but you gotta show me something. You gotta show me something that says you're as human as I am. You know? We can go out, all of us can go out and feel differently when we come to the theater.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know, be elevated, be lifted to who our, who we really are-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: …who are spiritual selves are, and not just what's out here.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: You know? It's wonderful when a dancer can take you on, on another plane, on another trip-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: …you know, into another realm. You know?
Norton Owen: And…
Judith Jamison: - It's, it's, it's... When you see, like, fine acting, for instance, when I saw Fences with-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison:...Denzel Washington-
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison:…and, and Viola, and all that. And then you just get... They suck you in and then they throw you out, and it's over [audience laughs].
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: And you're going like, "Oh, my goodness."
Norton Owen: Mm.
Judith Jamison: You don't think of that as acting. You think of, of having an experience in the theater, an experience not necessarily in theater because they knock the walls down.
Norton Owen: Mm-hmm.
Judith Jamison: They knock the walls down, so they become- Relative to you. And, and brilliant dancing does that…
Norton Owen: Hmm.
Judith Jamison: Right? Are we in agreement? And you're- We are. I know we are.
Norton Owen: And you're, and you're passing that along to the students here this week?
Judith Jamison: And you know, I'm try- God bless you all. I'm telling you, I don't know how you do it [Owen laughs]. That, I mean, really, I'm worn out. I know you must be, but no, you're much younger than I am. But they are working so hard, so very hard. I really, really cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. I told you guys that you're learning from me, but I'm also learning from you, because it's a never ending cycle. It's constant. There's something that maybe I haven't thought of in the last 69 years that you have thought of. And you know, it's back here, here in my head, but I, I look at it anew when I see you, and I, I'm very pleased to be in your presence, and especially here.
Christian Warner: On November 9, 2024, Ms. Jamison transitioned at the age of 81, leaving behind a lifetime of contributions to American dance and a global legacy as a pillar for Black artists - a beacon of what is possible. With limbs that seemed to reach beyond eternity, and with an endurance and conviction that resonated far beyond the United States, she moved audiences around the world who had the privilege of witnessing her in iconic works, most notably Cry, choreographed by Alvin Ailey as a tribute to his mother. The solo traces a journey through sorrow, hardship, and ecstatic joy, one that continues to reverberate across generations. I had the honor to witness her virtual memorial, a moment where time seemed to stand still as the professional members of the Alvin Ailey company were joined by what seemed like an ocean of younger dancers for a special rendition of Cry - sending her forward into the ancestors’ embrace…
[audio clip from memorial rendition of Cry]
[Music begins, composed and performed by Jess Meeker]
Norton Owen: That’s it for this episode of PillowVoices. Thank you for joining us today. On behalf of Jacob’s Pillow, we look forward to sharing more dance with you through the films, essays, and podcasts at DanceInteractive.JacobsPillow.org, and of course through live experiences during our Festival and throughout the year. Special thanks to the National Endowment for the Arts for helping launch this podcast series. Please subscribe to PillowVoices wherever you get your podcasts and visit us soon, either online or onsite.