Pillow Scholar-in-Residence Ramón H. Rivera-Servera is joined by Ballet Hispánico's Artistic Director Eduardo Vilaro, flamenco artist Nélida Tirado and choreographer Luis Salgado in a lively conversation about what it means to carry the fullness of Latinidad culture into dance. Recorded August 22, 2026.
[Music begins, composed by J.S. Bach, performed by Jess Meeker]
Norton Owen: Welcome to PillowVoices, a production of Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival, with content drawn from the Pillow Archives and the artistic community. I'm Norton Owen, the Pillow's Historian and Founding Director of Preservation, and it's my pleasure to introduce this episode featuring a 2026 Pillow Talk about the future of Latine dance. Pillow Scholar-in-Residence Ramón Rivera-Servera is joined by Ballet Hispanico's Eduardo Vilaro, flamenco artist Nelida Tirado and choreographer Luis Salgado in a lively conversation about what it means to carry the fullness of Latinidad culture into dance.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you so much for joining us for this PillowTalk. My name is Ramón Rivera-Servera. I'm a scholar of Latino dance, and the Dean of Fine Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. I am delighted to be here today to have a conversation with these distinguished practitioners of Latine dance, and I wanted to start the conversation...They'll introduce themselves shortly and give us a bit of a journey of how they arrived at this, but I just wanted to trouble some terminology first before we get started. Just, you know, just to let you know that Latino/Latine is an umbrella term that sits next to a gazillion other terms to call for the kind- for the communities here in the US and elsewhere that live under this umbrella. That is not a race. It's not a, a national location. It is a meeting point literally of many, many, many historically assigned and assumed positions and, and what it means to be and come from Latin America and all of the communities and diasporas that that entails, including roots to Spain, to Africa, to the Middle East, and elsewhere, right? So other terms may be just as familiar. Hispanico, the same way that the dance company that Eduardo runs names it. Um, uh, Latin American, uh, there's folks that use...I, I'm Puerto Rican, uh, and, and have family who still name themselves Puerto Rican and families who are Diasporican- (audience laughs) because they're, they're a different generation of rootedness in the United States. In the Mexican American tradition, there's Mexican American, there's Chicano, Chicana, uh, as another way of naming where we're from and who we are, right? Uh, and there's people who refuse entirely these markers and may be Afro-Diasporic or Afro-Caribbean, uh, or may claim a different kind of indigenous diaspora route. If you go to Los Angeles and you are from Oaxaca, you may not identify as Mexican American. You may still be, uh, attached to the roots of your indigenous inheritance. And I like to use that as a framing because it allows us to understand that this is a really dynamic term that has come to collect a lot of our experiences, a lot of our curatorial practice in the arts, but that it's still always a contested verb rather than a specific location. And then Latine, the E, very much like the way we use the X, is a space where we expand the gender designations of those terms as well, right? And that is critically important, again, not settled either, and not all communities assume it, but the reason why it's so important for dance in particular is as a form that regards the body so seriously as its primary instrument for art making, we have to be in the moment with the discourses and practices that name the body. And there's a whole generation for whom their experience does not fit neatly in a gender binary, right? And, and it's a way of honoring those processes and those other locations in the contested territory of Latinidad. (Mm-hmm). We also honor that with using that particular designation, right? So with that framing, um- (Okay, yes). you know, I, I'm, I'm really interested in- (Vilaro: Thank you for coming, everybody) (Audience laughs). I'm, uh, I'm really interested in then using that complexity of terminology and the experiences that it brings under a grouping, um, to ask each of our presenters who come from very different traditions in the practice, uh, but also in their own journeys into any of these terms and how they might define their entry point into dance in Latine, Latinx, Hispanic, Latino, whatever terms fit their particular journey. So Eduardo, you wanna go ahead and get us started?
Eduardo Vilaro: Oh, my.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: And introduce yourself and tell us how do you arrive at this term?
Eduardo Vilaro: I'm Eduardo Vilaro, and I'm the artistic director and CEO of Ballet Hispánico. I've been at the helm- (audience applauds). Thank you. That's very kind. Thank you. I've been at the helm of this organization for, this summer makes 18 years. (Audience: Wow). But I danced with the organization for a decade. That means 28 years- Mm ... of, um, DNA, right? (Rivera-Servera laughs) It's in my DNA. Um, I... I- how do I arrive, um, to Latine dance? Well, I am an immigrant. I arrived here from Cuba in 1969. You do the math. I won't give you how old I was, but I was very young (audience laughs). Um, and, and, um, you know, we, w- I am of the generation where we came and you had to assimilate, not acclimate. Um, you had to... We were not allowed to speak Spanish, um, beyond of the doors of the house. My parents wanted me to learn. I learned. I became the first English speaker in the household, which then designates you as the person to do all the legal work (audience laughs) and all the stuff, and you're like... You're 12 (audience laughs). It, it happens a lot to immigrant families. This is not... I'm not a, a, a standout case. This happens. And so what I did have at home was the music, and I think I wanna really kinda frame that around our music because our music is where the intersectionality of who we are really comes alive, uh, that mixture. In Cuba, I'm from Cuba, the, the African influence, not only of the, uh, music, but the religion Yoruba, um, in Santería, is very, very powerful everywhere, in every home. And so you have those rhythms, and you go to, um, parties. And so you... You know, my mother was always, "You need to learn how to dance, or you will never find a girlfriend" (audience laughs). Little did she know. (audience laughs). Right? Um, so I was like, I was twirling (audience laughs). And it was this, the late, late '70s, early '80s, and, you know, you had, um, disco, Latin J- Latin disco, and you were twirling, right? So you learned partner dance, and that's how I came to it. But I, I didn't feel like that was what, uh... where I found dance. I found dance because of a, a production in eighth grade, You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown- and I was given the role of Linus. I was given the role of Linus (audience laughs). Um, and, and at that time I was, you know, s- still struggling with the language, but the, the director said, "I don't... I'm not a choreographer, I'm a director." And I said, "Great." "Uh, you need to go out. You need to dance and sing. I'll teach you how to sing." So he taught me how to sing, and then I improvised (audience laughs). And it was fabulous (audience laughs). I thought so anyway. But the, the sense, um, I... it was the first moment that I felt belonging, um, because I had a group of people, because I wasn't feeling that in school or in everywhere. You were still struggling. And so that's... I think dance found me in that instance. And so the combination of, uh, uh, the, this musical theater, uh, dance with Latinidad, then I, I couldn't, and I started searching out everywhere I possibly could to learn how to dance. Um, but there's this thing called machismo in Latin America- Yeah ... which I, I'm gonna be brief, briefer. But, um, you know, you couldn't, and I had to hide. So I, I, I came out first as a gay man and then as a dancer because my... I was so good in school, I was getting scholarships, and my parents were el, el doctor, el abogado, the lawyer. We, we have someone. We're, we're... Because my brothers were not doing it. Um, so, so that, that was an interesting thing, that I had to hide my art form because the machismo was all about, oh, he's, you know, he's, he's just gonna be a little ballerina. Um, and so I think that this...I'm blessed that I was in New York, which is, you know, such a city of intersection in itself, and I was able to find myself, um, and use Latine dance. And it wasn't until even after, because you're learning how to dance and you're learning Western forms. I was in the Graham School. I was in the second company of Graham. I was at the Ailey School. I was...You know, these were forms that were not Latin forms. So again, I was being put things on me that weren't, and I had to find myself. It was thanks to Tina Ramirez and Ballet Hispánico, when I first walked through that door and I felt home.
Audience member: Mm. Wow. Beautiful.
[Audience claps]
Eduardo Vilaro: Thank you so much.
Unidentified speaker: That is perfect.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Okay. Nelida, you are at a really interesting intersection between flamenco and its rootedness, and all the Latin dances that you also perform as part of your repertoire. What's your journey into this Latine umbrella?
Nelida Tirado: Where do we start? [she and audience laughs] [Unidentified speaker: From the beginning] From the beginning. Um, from the beginning, well, I was raised in the Bronx, New York [audience applauds]. Of Puerto Rican parents. Um, and dance was always something that was in the house. Dance was part of your regular birthday celebrations, your holiday celebrations. So dance, we were very, very comfortable dancing, and it wasn't in any specific way, but it was just our way of celebration and of being together. Um, and it was after a kindergarten reci- recital, graduation. I'm telling you. Um, that my kindergarten teacher put me in the center and she said... She told my mom afterwards, she says, "You know, she has something very natural for dance. You should put her in dance." I have... I come from a family of musicians, but not dancers. Um, they're very good social dancers in the house, but, um, not formal dancers. So my mom decided to find dance classes for me, and she was really passionate about me learning bomba y la plena.
Eduardo Vilaro: Hmm. Hm.
Nelida Tirado: To keep me, because I was rai- because I was born in New York, to keep me connected to my roots and so I wouldn't be lost, and I'll get back to that in a second. So, um, at that time, you couldn't find bomba y la plena classes, not like now that they're really popular. Um, and she found a small little workshop school that was on 170th Street and Jerome Avenue. [Unidentified speaker: Yes] [she laughs]. And it was walking distance from my home. And at that place, they offered classical Spanish dance, flamenco, and ballet. And I was five years old, and I started taking class, and it was something that I absolutely loved. Um, flamenco Spanish dance for me was something that I remember that be- being that young and me being transported and someplace else, and it's hard to talk about that without getting emotional. Um- I continued. That ended up being a small workshop of Ballet Hispánico. [Unidentified Speaker: Mm-hmm. Whoa]. And I was there one year, and my teacher said, "No, we have to pull you out of... You have to go to the big school in Manhattan." And I... My mom was like, "Okay, whatever she needs to do." So- [Unidentified Speaker: Right] ... I took class at Ballet Hispánico, and I took class in my local neighborhood in the Bronx. I did both programs. And throughout the years, I went through the entire program at Ballet Hispánico, and I'm so grateful for all of the amazing training that I got at Ballet Hispánico to prepare me and be rounded out in ballet and modern and clásico y flamenco, which on this side of the world, clásico y flamenco, they're blurred, and there, and there's a lot of misunderstanding as to what is what.
Unidentified Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Nelida Tirado: Um, still all in, within all of that, I was living this urban Puerto Rican existence 'cause I was raised in a very Puerto Rican neighborhood. The cultures and the, the customs were still the same. The food is still the same. The language is still the same, and it was almost I was already living these dual identities. Um, however, the flamenco stuff was really started taking much more prom- a prominent place in my life once I got older, and it was really something that of all the forms that I was studying, that spoke to me the most. Um- And so much so that I continued my career doing flamenco. But I had little information about the history of flamenco and perhaps why I might be so enamored or called to it, and it's because of all the rich history of flamenco and all of the music and the forms that were informed by the Caribbean because of what happened throughout history. So they're all intertwined, and here I am in this middle existence of, now who, which way do I go? Who am I? And not understanding all of that. And fast-forward, I've lived...Most of my work, all of my work has been traditional until I started to do some choreographic work, and that choreographic work... If, if flamenco's anything, it is honesty. Um, and if your honesty... A- and if you're honest, I am s- a Latina, first and foremost. Una caribeña de sangre. And if I need to think about that, and I need to move within that, I'm still working in flamenco code- but there's something else that's speaking to me, and there's something else that's informing me. And what's informing me is my culture, what's informing me is my environment, my upbringing, and what I've come to know. Which flamenco and Latin dance, if you're, uh, they both have parallel, um, they've parallel existences, existences in the sense that they've, they both were birthed from people, not from a dance studio.
Unidentified Speakers: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nelida Tirado: They were both birthed from culture. You can go into a dance studio and learn it- but there's different ways that they look differently depending on your entry into the form. And so all of that to say is that now most of my work has in, been informed by this intersection that's within my person, within this intersection within history, and within the music, and within the dance, and I'm really passionate about exploring the depth of that because most of that information is not documented, uh, within flamenco because there was very little documentation, um, especially when it comes to the African roots of flamenco. Um, but Yeah, here I am [laughs].
[Audience applauds]
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Thank you so much for that. Thanks. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Luis, you, you inhabit another really interesting intersection 'cause you've become one of our most prolific contemporary choreographers, bringing Latino choreographies into musical theater platforms. What's your journey into that intersection?
Luis Salgado: To be or not to be, that is the question [audience laughs]. Um, no, my name is Luis. I come from Puerto Rico, very proud boricua. Um, and I didn't move to New York until I was 21, so I grew up mostly with the Puerto Rican folklore, which is when I hear you, I was like, it, it free us all, right? It free us all. Um, playing ao bomba was part of, like, my beginnings. But really, as I hear the entire conversation where we're heading, it's a life's journey, right? And so, like, the, the, the, the storytelling and the many different stories we get to tell started perhaps at a living room in a sofa dancing to Gloria Estefan [audience laughs]. "Come and shake your body, baby, do the conga" [audience continues to laugh] And so then I wanted to be a magician- and then I wanted to be a wrestler- ... which has a lot of theater to be talked about. Um, then I migrated to Hawai'i for a year, um, 'cause my father was in the army, my mom got sick, and that year changed my life because I was for the first time exposed to English. Um, I got my first discipline thing, which was karate. Um, and, and I had, my grades were As, and in Hawai'i they became Ds and Fs, right? Because I just didn't communicate proper. I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to exist in a classroom. So I begged my mom to get me back to Puerto Rico, and she did. And so when I got to Puerto Rico, psychologically, this nine-year-old children that I was, was, was needing a lot of help, and there were the arts, right? And so I was very blessed and very lucky that there was an after-school program called Enlace, which means to connect, um, in which I met this brilliant choreographer, José Javier Rivera, AKA Pepito. Um, and Pepito taught me plena, taught me bomba, you know, but he didn't stop there, and I got really lucky that this human being took me from fifth, sixth grade. When we graduated, they moved him to intermediate school, so I had him in seventh, eighth, and ninth. And I'll tell you the gossip. I lied to all my classroom teachers- ... because when I was supposed to take artes industriales or, you know, any of that, what we used to do is I would take the dance classes or the theater classes, and they will all grade me in what I was supposed to be, and Pepito will really tell them how I did in, in the theater class [audience laughs]. So he really supported me in my journey. Um, and all of this has a reason why I'm telling it, right? Because he then exposed me to acting, to singing, which is, like, the, the biggest fear, um, to use your voice in a singing pattern, especially when your first love is dance. Um, and so life continued, and I at 17 was already working. I was in college doing theater, um, work- working in TV, working in musical theater, working in theater per se, as I say, like, just le- legit plays. And I realized, like, there's more that I wanna learn, and there was New York City. Right? And there was New York City, and people like Ballet Hispánico, and Johary Ramos, and Carlos Sierra, and Marcos Santana, and Jhesus Aponte, and Puerto Ricans that I was like, "Oh my God. I wanna be like them when I grow up. Oh, snap. I'm growing up, but I do" [audience laughs]. And so, so, I took a leap of faith, um, went to New York City, and my life changed forever because I realized that really all that life experience from the sofa of, "Come on, baby. Shake your body, baby. Do the conga," to- ... all of the above, um, was leading me into becoming a musical theater performer. At this point, to make a long story very short, I've been able to have four Broadway shows, do Hollywood films, been able to go to Cirque du Soleil and work as an associate director/ choreographer. So my career has really taken an arc in which, in which storytelling is the main event, and where other disciplines outside of everything that I learned, like utilizing contemporary viewpoints or Suzuki technique from Japan, have become, like, the way that I love to work, and that brings me to the way I tell stories.
[Audience applauds]
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Thank you so much for that, Luis. I love that we've had all this very intimate personal stories that really ground your definitions of Latinx dance and, and the culture as, as Nelida was articulating, as Eduardo was articulating, as you were articulating as well. But each of you has reached significant national platforms of circulation for the work that you're doing in Latine dance. And I wanna hear about how that rootedness that you articulated as your beginning journey lands with the reality of the platforms you have now and the audiences you reach, right? So if you could talk a little bit about when you announce yourself as a Latine dance practitioner today, what does that mean in terms of what audience do you imagine you're presenting that work before? And, and, and, and not to put the burden of representation on all our shoulders, right? 'Cause that's-- but, but what does it entail in terms of moving this histories, this traditions, this techniques before audiences, many of which may be Latinx, but many of whom are not, right? How do you do that translation and that work?
Luis Salgado: If it's okay, I'll, I'll jump in because I already talked about the sofa [audience laughs]. So, so, um, for me, everything that I learned in fifth grade is everything that opened a big door in the big commercial since, you know, world for me. Um, my first Broadway musical was In The Heights and when Andy Blankenbuehler called me to work together and coach into the Latine rhythms, um, I basically was teaching him what I learned in fifth grade [audience member laughs], right? And, and, and that is, and that is very important because it wasn't about, um, the the difficult way of expressing oneself. It was about the pure, honest way of expressing oneself. It was really about the basics of plena, the basics of bomba, the basics of salsa, dancing the salsa on the one versus how does it evolve to dancing on the two. How is New York history a part of that? How does a character like Kevin Rosario, um, maybe was the reason why Usnavi, and Vanessa, and Nina, and Benny, and anybody else was learning the salsa. Therefore, if they learn it from Kevin Rosario, who learned it in New York, they were dancing on two. And creating that blueprint of justification for the art form of Latina representation - at In the Heights became really a way of celebrating where I come from. I mean, to the point that "Carnaval del Barrio" quotes my hometown where I was born and raised, Vega Alta, right? Because Lin-Manuel's family also grew up in Vega Alta. And so it, it was like the universe putting me in a space where I could recognize that actually everything that I lived was enough, right? Sometimes we come to United States, and we feel, like, less than, and, oh my God, apologetic about the thing. And here I was telling a story that really was celebrating every little single thing, including the piragua. And so that validation opened up a door of awareness to what I could contribute. So jump again to my joke about the sofa. You know, the, the last three d- years or more, I've been dedicated to directing and choreographing On Your Feet around the world, from Amsterdam for Jerry Mitchell putting up the original Broadway production, to then producing, directing, choreographing the second national tour. And in that, the, that power of representation, that power of awareness, that power of responsibility to help our community continue to look at themselves as we are enough, has been the biggest blessing. Because then I was able to bring people like Ralphie, who's now going on tour with Buena Vista Social Club. You know, a- among many other people that were in Puerto Rico saying, "C- could I go to New York and do this thing I love?" And then by the vehicle of musical theater, I've been able, able to open doors for a lot of people like them to do the thing we love. And so doing art or connecting to the thing we love might be the best key to freedom, to exposure, to representation, to a conversation where here you are listening to my words, even though you didn't know me five minutes ago or whatever that was, uh, 25 to be exact, right? And, and, and, and here we are sharing a little bit of the culture where I come from, and that matters. That makes a difference. Being able to be invited at the Jacob's Pillow, you know, program and school, and being able to bring bomba, and plena, and awareness of Suzuki, and Viewpoints to these wonderful future generations of artists, that's the way we represent. That's the way we open doors, and I think that's how art has exposed me to that opportunity.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Thank you so much for that. That's beautiful.
[Audience applauds]
Nelida Tirado: Well, um, how many hours do you have? [audience member laughs] Okay, um, really quickly. So I have always wrestled with having two separate bios. A bio for all of my flamenco work here in the States and in Spain. Um, and I've had a separate bio for all the Latin dance work that I've done. And I remember having a conversation with the late Valerie Gladstone in regards to what do I do, what do you recommend? Because I'm one person, um, but yet if I put my entire work in one bio, my Latin dance work seems to diminish my flamenco work. And I know that that's not the truth. But because we are on this side of the world, um, I will be forced to sit in the box that people will want me to sit in, which is the Puerto Rican box. I've had much, a much easier time working in Spain than what I've had working in the United States because here I am a Puerto Rican woman. Um, in Spain they're looking at dance for dance, and I'm getting work 'cause of my ability, and here I'm getting... I, I've had issues because my passport is not Spanish. So are we looking at the dance or are we not looking at the dance? But putting that to the side, I'm still really passionate about being fully myself either way. Um, and I've learned to kind of not pay attention to those that don't understand 'cause there's somebody that definitely is not gonna understand what I do. But most of my passion in living in, living fully in this intersection is because I am fighting still for our existence. I don't want us to be erased.
Unidentified Speaker: Hmm.
Nelida Tirado: Not our language, not my history, not my culture. Everything is being compromised at this point now, and with that is memory. When I go on stage and I dance, I am not only dancing everything that I've learned and listening and all of those things to the music, but I'm pulling from a place of memory, and that memory has to do with my family and has to do with my culture. And if I'm not going to defend that adamantly, being a traditional flamenco dancer, because that's what flamenco's about, sentir.
Unidentified Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Nelida Tirado: Sentir, to feel. Regard- And there's a gazillion Mex- Uh, there's a gazillion flamenco dancers that are not Spanish that are amazing ... and we all have to kind of, like, blur it down a sense to be accepted, um, on this side of the world. Uh, but mostly my passion is just about that, about so that we're, we're not entirely erased.
[Audience applauds]
Eduardo Vilaro: Ooh, sentir. Ooh. That's major. It is, yeah. Yeah, sentir, to feel. Um, I, I'm going to talk about concert dance, um, specifically because that is the world that I inhabit, and that adopted me, and I adopted it. Um, I, I wanna first, um... For me, concert dance and dance are about ancestors, are about those people that came before, about those people that mentor you, those people that give over to you. Dance, to me, is a folk form, whether we... It, it's, that's... I'm just using the term folk now, not folk dance. It is a folk form. It has to be handed to you. Someone has to tell you, "I did it like this, and here is the step, and the feeling is here. The sentir is there, and I want you to express it your way. What is your artistry?" And so that... It's like crocheting. If you get, if you don't get that knot that your grandmother did well- [audience laughs] ... you're not gonna get it. But you have to practice it, and that practice is the continuation. Um, and so it's really fascinating to me because I never felt or senti that I was part for a long time. And even when I started training, you know, I loved… I, I had a teacher that, that said, "Oh, Eduardo. Sounds like a cheap, um, bottle of Italian wine." [Unidentified speaker: What?] You know, so- Right. Yeah, yeah. So your name- Oh, my God ... so who you were- Oh, my God ... and you wouldn't be... And th- this... I'm not gonna name names. Um, and, and, and you were like, well, yeah, y- your name is someone... It's who you are. And so for me... And I just say this story because, for me, it was always, um, a challenge to put out my Latino-ness. It was always a challenge to say, "I am here, and respect it. Um, I am part of who I am." And so it's a journey. I mean, I, I don't feel that anymore sometimes because I'm still approached and mis- um, -identified, or something is said. And I can brush it off now, but when you're young, when you're developing, it, it's painful. [Unidentified speaker: Yes, yes]. And so... A- and I say this only because, for me, my mission, um, and thankfully because of Tina Ramirez, and I just wanna again place that name out, who saw a talent or saw someone with talent, gave them an opportunity. I mean, Tina was really great with me. She, she, uh, she... There was a connection that we had. She would always... In the bus, uh, on tour, she would finish The New York Times and pass it to me. It's like, "Eduardo wants to read this." "Eduardo's interested." Um, she developed me. She put me to create, um, uh, programs for, um, uh, what we call now outreach and engagement. Um, we did school programs where we brought in kids- Um, uh, from temporary, uh, shelters in the s- in the late '80s. There was a problem with housing, just like it is now. Um, and so I was given these opportunities by a mentor who saw an ability, who saw someone who was interested in, um, being a change agent. Um, and so, so I think that that is what makes me who I am in terms of concert dance. I wanna show everyone the fullness of Latinidad, the diversity of Latinidad. We are not a monolith, and I think it's really important that I use the intersection of different, uh, dance techniques in concert dance to arrive at this place, at this new language. Because we, we are all from different, um, uh, uh, countries in Latin America, but when you come here and you become s- uh, something a little else. There's still a lot of who you are from home, but still that, again, you're blending. There, there is... And so I wanted to... I, I, my, my whole vision is to continue to show that kind of, mm, development, right? Um, of La- Latin dance, and I honor the flamenco. I love flamenco. I honor, um, our folk forms, and we blend them, and we try to bring it forward as another way of looking at the, um, cultures. Thank you.
[Audience applauds]
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Thank you so much for that. I'm gonna ask one more question and open it to all of you, 'cause I know one of the biggest gifts of gathering in this festival is the intimacy that you get with the artists and the opportunity to ask questions of them. But I like to think, you know, you all have kind of gone there a little bit, and, and thank you so much for being so candid and generous in, in your responses. I'm interested in hearing the more aspirational piece, right? When we're naming this thing called Latinx dance, as it lands in each of your forms, what do you see as its brightest future for, for your own particular field of practice, and what do you see as its, the biggest need to make that future a reality?
Unidentified Speakers: Do you want me to jump in or do you wanna go first? Jump in, Luis. Dale.
Luis Salgado: Okay. So . Um, dale. Um, authorship. You know, to be able to tell stories that, that you believe and, and, and you know and that you can share because they could perhaps, um, open a world of perspective, you know, as to who we are. Um, which is what we're doing here. I mean, right now I'm very grateful to be able to, for the very first time, explore under the musical theater program, uh, how do we even move when trying to play baseball on the stage without h- having to do damn Yankees per se, right? [audience laughs] Like, like, you know? And so, like... And so, sorry [audience laughs]. And so , and so the- Yeah ... hey. Well, you know, I mean, it's great, but, but, but, but what is it? What is it? And so, like, you look at, you look at Roberto Clemente, you look at his life, you look at his legacy, you look at the amount of, you know, inspiration he leaves. He, he died in a plane crash on the 31st of December because he wanted to go help people that had just suffered an earthquake in Ni- in Nicaragua. He left his family behind to do that, and that is a Latino representing all of us back in that time period. And, and so when you look at me or you look at Eduardo, right, you, any of us, and you're all of a sudden might judge us or say whatever, "Eduardo, "... whatever you... Right? [Vilaro: Si]. Like, no, wait. Roberto Clemente...Roberto Clemente is not a story that I'm not gonna not fight to make sure that it furthers itself forever and ever and ever. Two years ago I was here and, and we explored the same with, uh, a wonderful human being from Brazil whose name is Barba, Fernando Barba, and so he, he took his own life because he could no longer use his body, and all that he knew in his life was to tell mu- to make music through the power of body percussion. Imagine sitting down in a space where you could no longer communicate through rhythms, for the world to just open up. Um- Uh, probably you heard the sound. I, I don't have the melody in my mind right now, but ba-ya-na-a-na . Anyway, that's the music. They, in the, in the Olympics when they were in Brazil, they performed. The world knows this. And all of a sudden this, th- like, not to be erased, this story might be forgotten if it's not through the full passing of the torch of the story. Except that we have a powerful tool called arts- Yes ... and, and theater and storytelling through musical theater and dance. So we explore Barba here at Jacob's Pillow with the same music director that I have. And so authorship is the way that we carry a torch that says, "We matter, and your name will never be erased," right? And so that is, I think, super important. The same way that, you know, Tina has done it or, uh, Miriam Colón has done it. Um, I have the honor of h- having a nonprofit organization called Revolución Latina. We all need to say it, Revolución Latina [Audience members: Revolución Latina]. Thank you for rolling those Rs [audience laughs]. Um, and for 19 years, um, we've been now empowering and inspiring the, the upcoming Latine artists, and they come from Argentina, they come from Colombia, they come from Peru, Mexico, m- you name it. But what happens is that we create a circle effect. They're learning from the world and the opportunities of New York City to flourish into storytelling and all these other dynamics, but we are also learning from them. I got commissioned to, to write a show, a flamenco show, in Peru, and so it was Candela Por Sí Pasión. And so I wrote it after studying. I went to the La Selva, La Amazonas. I went to Chincha, which is the Black community who has, like, el zapateo chinchano. I mean, it's incredible. We study marinera norteña. Marinera... I would have never done that if it wasn't for the cycle of giving through empowering and passing the torch. And so I think that that's how we do it. We create authorship. We, we make spaces where we can t- teach but also learn and further our history. That's, that's my answer.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Thank you for that.
[Audience applauds]
Nelida Tirado: I love that. And if I can piggyback off of that, that's fantastic. Yeah, holding onto those stories so that this culture is, our cultures are still and our stories still remain alive. And I wanna also say that when I'm speaking of erasure, um, I'm speaking of w-what happens when we have to assimilate.
Unidentified Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Nelida Tirado: What happens, for instance, when, uh, we lose our language? What happens when we lose our customs to become more accepted? Um, what happens when we lose our land? Um, all of these different things, and Puerto Rico and so many places are going through this right now. There's no reason why we should have no water- There's no reason ... and why there should... Exactly, why there should not be electricity, but we're, but we're a US colony. Like, it just... That's what I'm talking about erasure and my passion within that, and I'll say that from a Latina, uh, uh, perspective. Now, if I'm talking about a flamenco artist perspective, the in-the information and material that is hidden and lo- well, not lost, but me- there's a world of what you call the cantes de ida y vuelta.
Unidentified Speaker: ¿Los qué?
Nelida Tirado: Los can- los cantes de ida y vuelta. Los cante, los toque, los baile de ida y vuelta. The back and forth, and the back and forth is because of the transatlantic slave trade and all the things that were borrowed, taken, inspired by. Those, it came back as music. It came back through dance. That intersection, while we think of flamenco, we think of something Spanish.
Unidentified Speaker: Yep. Right.
Nelida Tirado: Give it back. Where did it come from? And let's go further back. Where's Africa? Yeah. That place in there, when I'm talking about, uh, flamenco, that is... I love flamenco. I can fly. But that place in particularly speaks volumes to me because it has to do with us directly as Caribbean people. I was like, "Okay, that's where I'm at right now." And I think that when I create and when I, um, inspire, am inspired by those stories, I mean, camina solo. It just... The, the work is, the work is done. There's nothing for me to do [Rivera-Servera: I love it]. It's all right there.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Abajo. Yeah. Thank you. Camina solo.
[Audience applauds]
Eduardo Vilaro: I think, I think being in it, we are constantly very much concerned with that, not, not erasing, um, and bringing forth and sharing. Um, as far as aspiration, come now, Bad Bunny just did the [audience laughs]- The... Uh, c- come now. I mean, everyone's eating our food. Yeah. Everyone is listening to Bad Bunny. Everyone is looking at Cardi B and saying, "How can I dress like that?" [audience laughs] I, I mean, there's something... I, I, I, I wanna balance this as well- Right ... because, um, w- we are in it because we are these warriors and, and I, and I can feel it. I... The energy that emanates when you speak, I feel that warriorship. I'm with you. Um, because we're constantly saying, "I've gotta get this message out. I've gotta make sure that people are interacting with, um, our cultures." It's so important. But yet sometimes I step back and I go, "Ah, this is fantastic." Because slowly but surely, you know, it takes time. It takes time in, in... especially in America, that is an experiment. We're still-- We are also part of the experiment. Um, and I think that is for me what it is. I am part of this experiment. Um, I, I am also afraid of what happens, um, and I don't want to lose or be erased or have my brothers and sisters from other countries... I mean, I can't go back to mine, which is a whole other issue of colonization. Right? I can't, um, uh, 'cause it… they're being squ- squozen. I mean, this is what's happening, and now Venezuela also. Um, and so, so, but I, I still want to... I'm forever an optimist. I still wanna believe that there is such passion for Americans to share with each other. Um, there is such love and respect still, and we just have to cultivate that. We have to cultivate all of us here- because the many can take over the one. And I ain't gotta say anything else [audience laughs]. Um, right? It, it's, it's togeth- that's what we have to do [audience applauds]. And, and you, some of you who... Did you see the concert just now, the performance? Yeah. [Audience members: Yes]. So, so that moment when each of us has an audience- and they are feeling the feelings. [Audience members: Yes]. Yeah. And feelings that we all share. Whether you're Puertorriqueño, Cubano, um, uh, from Louisiana, from wherever. The, the... It's such a powerful moment, and that's why we need the arts. That's why we need live arts. Yes. That's why we need... Because this is the moment where you can't escape to your, um, to your, to your mechanism, right? I have to give props to the staff in the theater. They were like, "No, put that away" [audience laughs] I was like, "Damn." Um, it was fantastic. But, but the thing is that, that that is... it takes that concentration, and we've lost that concentration, and we've gotta get it back.
[Audience applauds]
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Thank you so much for that. And, and thank you for all three of you for really validating that a lot of the places where this work survives is in the gather.
Unidentified Speakers: Yes. Yes.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Is being present for it. Mm. Is, is putting your body in the mix of receiving it, of producing it, and advancing it. And with all the head nodding and clapping - ... I've been seeing in this deck today, I know there's questions [audience laughs]. So this is the time when we're gonna open up and offer you this delicious bouquet of artists who are doing incredible work on the stage.
Eduardo Vilaro: I have a question for you.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Yeah.
Eduardo Vilaro: What's your journey to Latine dance?
[Rivera-Servera and audience laugh]
Eduardo Vilaro: I mean, right?
Ramón Rivera-Servera: Yes. Yes.
Eduardo Vilaro: This man is an incredible scholar [Rivera-Servera laughs]. Who knows dance. Come on now.
Ramón Rivera-Servera: I'm in the Puerto Rican mix where, where you're born with it and, and you do it. I mean, it w- I, I started taking dance classes mostly 'cause I had really severe dyslexia, so it was not about culture- [Vilaro: Wow] it was about getting eye-motor coordination. And when you're a boy in dance, you start getting parts, you know, you know, talent aside. [Vilaro: Yeah] [audience laughs]. Um, but, but there were not techniques that fit me until I came to Rochester, New York, and it was in, in, in Rochester, New York at the University of Rochester where I found forms that fit me and embraced me, and it was more in the more experimental performance art, uh, contact improvisation scene. And, and, and, and from there, ended up in a tiny little internship in a dance company in upstate New York, Garth Fagan Dance- [audience applauds]... uh, working with their archives- Come on ... and became a dance scholar at the end of it. But it, but it was also finding a form that was thinking the Caribbean, where I was from, and thinking it diligently and experimentally, and, and then getting a real responsibility for, this company has been around for 21 years then, and it doesn't have an archivist. It doesn't... Like, these legacies need to be protected and collected, and it's one of the things I so value, the room next door- ... and the work of this festival, a place where you can hear, um, you know, Tina Ramirez talk about Nelly the, walking into her classroom when she was a little girl, before then she became a teacher in her own company. And where you can see video of, of this gentleman over here performing [audience laughs]- ... on, on this very stage in the 1980s. So, you know, so that full circle moment- I felt it ... of how tending to these archives and these histories is also missionary work of ensuring the thing keeps going.
[Music begins, composed and performed by Jess Meeker]
Norton Owen: That's it for this episode of Pillow Voices. Thank you for joining us today. On behalf of Jacob's Pillow, we look forward to sharing more dance with you through the films, essays, and podcasts at danceinteractive.jacobspillow.org. And of course, through live experiences during our festival and throughout the year. Special thanks to the National Endowment for the Arts for helping launch this podcast series. Please subscribe to Pillow Voices wherever you get your podcasts and visit us again soon, either online or on site.