In this excerpt from a 2004 PillowTalk, choreographer Shen Wei speaks with dance scholar Suzanne Carbonneau about his love of abstraction when making movement, stripping away narrative from musical scores, and integrating visual art into his stage works. Shen Wei also shares about his upbringing in the traditions of Chinese Opera and his early years after emigrating to New York City.
In this excerpt from a 2004 PillowTalk, choreographer Shen Wei speaks with dance scholar Suzanne Carbonneau about his love of abstraction when making movement, stripping away narrative from musical scores, and integrating visual art into his stage works. Shen Wei also shares about his upbringing in the traditions of Chinese Opera and his early years after emigrating to New York City.
Norton Owen: Welcome to PillowVoices, a production of Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival with content from the Pillow Archives. I'm Norton Owen, the Pillow’s Director of Preservation, and it's my personal pleasure to introduce this episode revisiting a 2004 PillowTalk with choreographer Shen Wei and Scholar in Residence Suzanne Carbonneau. In this conversation, Shen Wei dives into his love of abstraction when making movement or stripping away narrative from musical scores, and as he integrates visual art into his stage works. The occasion for this talk was the Pillow debut of Shen Wei Dance Arts, a New York based company known globally for their unique contemporary style informed by Shen Wei’s upbringing in the traditions of Chinese Opera.
Suzanne Carbonneau: Hi. Welcome to PillowTalks. My name is Suzanne Carbonneau. I'm a scholar in residence here, and I have the great pleasure today to be speaking with Shen Wei, the choreographer and artistic director of Shen Wei Dance Arts. He was born in Hunan, China, and studied Chinese opera from the age of nine. Went on to perform with the Hunan State Xian Opera Company for five years, before switching to modern dance. He was a founding member of the first modern dance company in China, the Guangdong Modern Dance Company. He danced for that company and choreographed before he emigrated to New York. And has been choreographing, painting, making films, designing, and doing work in multiple art forms, obviously, combining those forms, we'll talk about that. And was awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship in 2000. And formed Shen Wei Dance Arts in 2001. The company now performs all over the world. I know you come from a family that has a long association with Chinese opera. And I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your family background and your own, introduction to working in Chinese opera.
Shen Wei: I grew up in my family, my parents, my father, he's a Chinese opera performer, also director. Thank you. And same time he designs a costume set for the older productions in China, in Hunan. My mom, she's a producer in the theater. When I grow, grow up that time and we were our house just behind the stage (audience laughs). You know, in China you may know that long time ago the different the way that we how, how people live. If you're a special artist, if you're working. theater or music and operas, those have, you know, huge building. The front is the theater. And the back side is all the actors, their family lives. That which means all the kids grow up inside the theater. Every night we get, go to backstage to see performance and see all the, you know, actors and performers that do makeup and costume and rehearsal. So, especially me, I can get more chance to see my father rehearsing with another actors. And, I see so many, so many production (words unclear). And, I believe when I was six years old, they need a boy in the production. I was first time, you know, first time performing on the stage when I was six years old. When I was nine years old, I just got audition and picked up, in China finish the Cultural Revolution, the start to open school for arts. Um, each city picked two kids to be, study Chinese opera. I was one of the, one of the two kids, and went to study Chinese opera in the Hunan Art School. Everything around my family is about arts, and because also my two brothers, they are photographers and doing calligraphy. That was my uncle and the opera performer too. All my friends are painters and musicians and composers. Just everything around me in my life, how I grew up and around all the artists. And yes, it has to do with my family.
Suzanne Carbonneau: You also, I understand, were trained in the visual arts as a young child also, is that right?
Shen Wei: Yes, when I was little, my father, you know, part of my family tradition will have to, to learn how to do calligraphy and painting when I was like four or five. When I was very little, I really enjoyed doing paintings. And I was at home all the time doing calligraphy and doing Chinese watercolor paintings. Once we moved to, when I went to the opera school, I started getting more interested in the visual arts. At the same time I was, because in that school also have like fine arts department. I have a friend who can, you know, can see them doing paintings and I will learn some from them. And when I graduate from the opera school, I have more time. And once you're working in the opera company, you get a lot of time free. Then I started really trained as a visual art.
Suzanne Carbonneau: Hmm. And you I think at that time also started getting interested in Western, visual arts. Is that right?
Shen Wei: Yes. Um, yes. Because that's time when I, in the opera company, and, you know, that's 1984. I graduated in 1984. That time, China just opened to the Western world. And then there are a lot of Western arts and culture to Eastern and, you know, to China. And I got a lot of opportunity to learn more about the Western visual arts. At the same time, because when you study a paint, painting, you know you have to go through all the, find a classical, renaissance paintings, go through to the modern, you know, abstract paintings. For me, that time was to get really interested in the modern culture about western countries.
Suzanne Carbonneau: I think most Westerners , who know something about traditional Chinese opera, know Beijing opera. Can you tell us the difference between Beijing opera and the form that you study, Xiang opera?
Shen Wei: Actually, it's almost the same. Because, well, the Hunan Xiang opera, actually even... You have a longer history than the Peking Opera. There's a long, you know, in Hunan's era, there's 300 years of history for the opera. But we're only singing, you know, when you talk, you're singing in the Hunan dialect. It's not in Mandarin, but really close to. The old style and the repertory almost, a lot are similar.
Suzanne Carbonneau: I read, uh, that you said that you were shocked when you first, uh, when you saw your first Western modern dance. Can you talk about this idea of being shocked by it and what was shocking about it?
Shen Wei: Because, you know, once you're little, you always see people performing Chinese opera in that way, doing that kind of makeup. And you see your father do the thing. You get really deep. Then you studied, studied six and a half years in the opera school. Then you get really into the traditional way of how you perform in the Chinese opera way to perform. And I was performing a lot of repertories. And I used that way of how I express myself on stage to the audience. Since 1986 or 7, when I went to Beijing, I saw a modern dance company from Canada. I was, “Wow, what, they perform completely the way as I did.” I, I always saw in the, from the theater. That was a huge shock for me, but same time we really understand that same concept of why they perform that way, why, you know, how they get a communicated from their art form to the, the young, the new, or the audience. For me, because, you know, they help me from the painting studies, you know, educations, because from the painting I learned a lot about Western culture in modern concept. Once you see contemporary art, then you just get a sense, Oh, I know what's going on, but the first time I never thought they can be presented on performance. I thought only can be in visual arts, at that time.
Suzanne Carbonneau: And you went to Guangdong and were a founding member of that company, a choreographer of that company, and you made a work that was controversial. Beijing Summer, 1994 Beijing Summer?
Shen Wei: Actually, you know, I just need to clear up that. Long time ago, people, this is one name. It's not this piece. I think a long time ago, people get a wrong name. It's a, it's a different piece. It's a different piece. In that time, I think people in China would try to, in 19, the companies just started in 1990. The first modern dance company in China. We have to prove like government approve, say we can have this company. We just try to show everything what we do because maybe they worry about the western concept. We, actually we do pretty well so many years, we have been traveling and tour, and the government, they say, “Okay, looks good, you guys do pretty good,” and they allow us to have the first modern dance company in China. But in that time, all the, our dancers or choreographer, , like me, I always try to push the limit, try to experience everything, maybe one walk they see things too abstract, they may see different way than what my original plan is. But it's, you know, art. It depends how you grow up. And what kind of education you have. You will see things different. Definitely, this is, you know, I accept why they think that way. Of course, if they grew up in that kind of environment, in that kind of experience, of course, everything will relate to their life. Because they're old generations. For me, I don't have the, you know, experience, life experience of they have. I see things completely different. Then that's why I guess some people think, Oh, this kind of work may kind of, you know, they see something else that was confused for me. And that's, yeah, have this kind of happening before when I was in Guangdong. Mm-hmm.
Suzanne Carbonneau: So was a misunderstanding?
Shen Wei: I think it's maybe misunderstanding because the piece is so abstract, and I think it's nothing to do with, you know, what the government is thinking, you know, talking about. But people, you know, it's not everyone. It's maybe one critic, or one people, audience, saw this work. They have to write a letter to somewhere. And they start them, and this work just, people just report to the company and say, oh, we cannot perform this piece anymore. People, people, you know, it's so sensitive. And once, you know, the China is like, now you open it more, if you step too far, they will push you back, a little bit, you know, they just, like now, if you do, you know, now you can see so many different work and performing China, it's okay, it's no problem, but you need to think about that time, you know, China just get far a little bit, just, I think that happened just after the Tiananmen Square 1990, 1991, that time, you know, it's toughest time for, you know, special to dealing with conceptual in culturally.
Suzanne Carbonneau: Did that pressure contribute to the decision to leave China?
Shen Wei: No. That, no, it's not that, it's not that reason. That is because it happened in 1991 when I left in 1994 and the end of 1994. I think it's so many another reasons. You know, once you be artist, you want to learn more. Once you worked, you know, you don't want to just, when you twenties, you will be a residence choreographer in a company forever. And you just need to learn more just to see, you know, you have to go to another place to understand these more things. It's too young how much you really know, you know, at that time. That's why I did make a decision, I said I have to go out to see more things, to really get more deep to understanding what I'm doing, what I'm going to do.
Suzanne Carbonneau: Seems a very brave decision to me, to leave. You're well- known in China, you had a following in China, to leave all that and come to the United States, where you didn't know the language, I think, and, and you were really starting all over again.
Shen Wei: Yeah, that's really, really tough. Because I, when that time, you know, the first modern dance company in China were kind of really popular at that time. And they were performing my work a lot. And I also got a lot of work. And it's, you know, everything seems in a really perfect place. Then, once you move to New York, you, nobody knows you, you have to start over again. And, you know, Maybe you're good in that place, maybe not match this culture happening in New York City. You know, just you have to drop everything away. Just think, okay, just think about ten years before I haven't started dance. Then you just start learning everything from beginning. Then see how fast you can catch. Then it's tough, really tough, because you don't know the culture. You don't speak the language. You have no support in financial. And also, you know, trying to be an artist in New York City is already difficult. And you don't have the basics, you know, you don't even know how to open your, you know, telephone account, or you don't even know how to run up space. It's a completely different system than China, you know, American. It's still taken me a long time, even now, still a lot of things I have to understand more about the difference about the cultures.
Suzanne Carbonneau: You're also a visual artist, and I'm wondering if you could talk about how your visual arts work feeds into your choreography, and maybe the other way around too, how your choreography affects your painting?
Shen Wei: Yes, they both really definitely help each other. In basically really, in the surface way what we see, our visual artist is the way how we train our sensibilities about you seeing things, your eyes. You know, when you're seeing things, how much you sense from the visual, that's for visual artists, you basically can get training for that. But I think it, you know, in some way we're doing performance arts, and theater performance arts in some way, your eyes have to be really sensitive to feel whatever things in front of your eyes. They really help me to see things like what color can make you feel what kind of feelings, what kind of shape can make what kind of feelings. And the visually, that's basically the surface. After a little while, then you're not just standing on the image anymore. You will see the movement, how the movement take you to different place. And also my dance can take shape of my, you know, visual arts sensibilities to different place, not just a body, the color, and not just by the shape anymore. Things just help you to, you know, to get more deeper once you have more experience to work both together.
Suzanne Carbonneau: Do you think working with movement has had an impact on your painting?
Shen Wei: Oh, yes. Yes, definitely. When you go to a gallery, you see really avant garde visual arts, and they help your way to think about bodies. Okay, if I see that, how can I see that in choreography? How you can help each other? They just help me to open my brain more, see what possibilities is, then help you develop to another place. And they really both really help each other for my work, definitely.
Suzanne Carbonneau: Um, maybe we can talk about some of the work you've made since 1999. Folding from 1999, that's a work you made for Guangdong, is that right?
Shen Wei: Yes, yes.
Suzanne Carbonneau: Yes. And that piece, people really focused on, is all of a sudden, oh, Shen Wei is working very differently. Can you talk about the conception of Folding?
Shen Wei: And Folding, that's the piece I made in 1999-2000, permitted in 2000 for the Guangdong Modern Dance Company, when I'm back to China. That piece, it started really simple. Always my work start really simple, it's not complicated at all. Then you develop, you're creative, make things happen, follow your original concept. I started when I see a fabric, when they fold together, or I see the paper, when they fold together. Then you just see some quality of this movement, action. Just, okay, how I can make a dance, just develop to get more deep about this action? Then start to find some more movement, original movement that have this kind of sense or feelings. Then I develop all different movement that has related to this quality. Then, that piece can't be a large piece. Then people start to think about the past, and the future, and the fish, whatever things, it's not just a simple action anymore. But, all, whatever things you see on the stage, you do see, feel the quality where the fabric folds together. That piece just, yeah, that's how simple it is. It's called Folding. Of course you can, once you grow, when you're in the studio, you start to creative, develop, things can grow far and go wide range. They're really, and develop completely different work in the end.
Suzanne Carbonneau: Hmm. Because the work is actually so rich in imagery also…
Shen Wei: Yes, that piece I do spend a lot, a lot of time, you know, when I focus on, not spend a lot of time always have to spend a lot of time for each pieces. I focus on more on visual, visual elements. And because that's the first piece I go back to China, and the way I have to show my concept to the Chinese dancers. Where image is really important, you know, it's easier somehow to get communicated with them. And then that piece, yeah. Focus lot on the visual elements
Suzanne Carbonneau: And the Rite of Spring, which is also on, uh, the program here this week, seems to me extraordinarily different. You tackled a score that is legendary in modern dance, going back to Nijinsky in 1913. Can you tell about how that piece came about for you?
Shen Wei: This piece took me almost two years to finish. A lot of the music, like everyone else, you know, everybody here, once you hear this music, it's incredibly good. When you hear more, I just want to see why I'm so interested in this music. Then I find out it's so fascinating for me is why he, you know, composes pieces such different than any other piece you hear. Then the way how he composed made the one most, the strong point for me. Then I start to get into this piece. I say I'm going to make this piece just focus on his compositions, about this piece. I think, for me….
Suzanne Carbonneau: Rather than the story?
Shen Wei: Yeah, no story, because I think, you know, my personal way to think of this piece is, that really drive me in is the music itself. How he composed. It's not, actually not the story. You know, I think, maybe another story is more strong for me than this, but for me, this piece, the way how he composed is like extremely, extremely, like, just take it immediately. It's like, “Wow.” The way how he think, how he put things together. I take so long time to understand this music…
Suzanne Carbonneau: Do you mean on a structural level?
Shen Wei: Structural level. The way how he composed, how he put things together. You know, this piece, I think everybody knows. They never have even counts. Four counts or eight counts. Everything jumps. You know, 1-2, then you dance in the upbeat. Downbeat, the 14 different tracks, music, and each one is crazy differently. It's no transition. Then jumping back and forth. And the quality, you know, there are really so many different elements in each short sections. And it's, you know, it's challenge in so many different way. Once I think, okay, I'm gonna make a piece just about, you know, to compose the music and with my choreography. Then I start with this dance piece. Then start based on the movement too. How can, as a choreographer, if I'm, if Stravinsky, if he's a choreographer, what he would do, you know, that way? I think because he's a composer, he did the music in different, I think if I'm Stravinsky, I'm gonna make a piece in choreography to see how can break the way, how usually choreographer make a dance piece, then I study in that way. Once you really understand the music. And you're not going to try to follow each count anymore. This is not your thing. You spend time, everybody can spend a lot of time to follow each music. Even you have more time, you can find out what it exactly is. Then you have to go deeper for me to find out who, you know, why he doing things like this. And, if I'm a Stravinsky, how can be a, the way, you know, walking, dancing, choreography and different, whatever I've done before, whatever another choreographer done before. The, the ends of this piece are really different, you know, you don't see the story and all the dancers on stage to play games. They really play games.
Suzanne Carbonneau: This piece has a floor cloth that you painted also. Can you tell us about that?
Shen Wei: I made a painting, it's the floor. The entire floor is a painting. And they're really, really huge paintings. And, you know, of course, different stage size, we have to change the, the way, how, how we're going to present. The original is 47 feet by 47 feet, on stage. And there you can see the full length of the painting. And also same way how I'm understanding the choreography, and I paint the same way how I'm going to see that in visual arts. Then when dancers, when dance on stage, their movement and somehow choreography, they're related to the floor.
Suzanne Carbonneau: This idea of painting on the floor, you've also used in your newest work, Connect Transfer, which you just premiered this summer. Maybe some people here saw it at Lincoln Center. But the painting happens differently?
Shen Wei: Yes, you see, everything, once you have something, you can start to develop more. Once I started with Rite of Spring, the same time I tried to develop the same concept in my painting as a visual artist. Then I started painting with the music, by myself. I just paint the, you know, I send my, because I know this piece, I dance in this piece also, and I try when, how I paint it to tell you how it is. I've taken a year to find out, find out how I did for this piece, for my paintings. I have a canvas on the floor. I will play the music. Rite of Spring music. Because I know the movement already. I know how the quality is not the entire piece of the Rite of Spring . I know the quality of the music, each section. I will let the energy go through, let the music energy go through my body. Then I will have my brush. I transfer my movement energy to my brush. left music on the canvas. Then when you see is, you really feel the Rite of Spring, the energies come through your eyes. That's the concept I developed in this year's piece, the Connect Transfer. Because, okay, I can relate my movement to the canvas, to the visual arts. Why am I just going to do a piece, you know, has to relate to, you know, the connections. The connections right now, you can talk big. Big is, you can say, Western world, Eastern world coming together, cultures. You can talk smaller is, how really we work things together. How you can make smooth transition or sharp transition, that make things different, especially in movement. I start with my dance movement, this piece, the Connect Transfer. See how transition when you go one movement to another movement. If we don't use too much energy in each movement start again, we use last movement energy transfer to next movement. That which means you save your all energy. You can use one. Once you start dance, you never stop. You always use last movements energy go to next. That of course have train your joints, the way how you use your muscle, the way how you gonna use your body. That's a new way for the dancer to have this new way to understand this piece and understand their bodies. Of course, this is one of the concepts, you know, one of the ways we're working in this piece. But at the same time, also, one of the sections, they have to transfer the energy to the floor. One is, you know, they have to, you know, have floor movement, have a continual non stop on the floor. One hand has to touch the floor. Transfer the movement quality to the floor all the time. Never leave the floor. Later, after a dance, with a kind of glove on the hands, dip in the paint. Then when I dance, then really left the movement on the floor and the canvas. Then when the end of the piece, actually, you see a painting. That's the piece called Connect Transfer. Also you can use that, go through your back, or go through your foot, go through your hands. Everything looks so smooth. It's really, really difficult. Sometimes you think, “Oh my God, how am I gonna get through this piece?” (audience laughs) You know, sometimes like a one, three, four, Rite of Spring, one of section eleven, chalk eleven, where only three minutes, twenty seconds, will span more than two weeks. Then, and two weeks later, I don't like it, I have to throw it away. Then I have to start again. You just almost, all of the answers almost like a, what are you talking about, we'll, we'll try that, like a, maybe twenty different versions of that piece. It doesn't work. You know, all of a sudden, all of my walks. Like today, you see the Behind Resonance. Last night, we did a run-through with all make up in the theater. Today, we've got two dress rehearsals for the dancers. Just for that piece, Behind Resonance.. Because that piece you talk about, because every place we do, every time different. The timing will be different. The dancers will run to somebody different. That every time you see something needs to be fixed. Now we had three times dress rehearsal for that piece. Even we performed already last year. Because the space changed the piece. Because this piece has to do with the space. Those things is really, you know, not that easy when you finally see the end. The process is extremely difficult, also really enjoyable when you get something really fast, or something you really think, oh my god, you just see something really have been reached that point for a long time, don't know what it is. That sitting, the things just show on your, you know, just showing the seconds. I say, that's the happiest time, was to be a choreographer, to be a choreographer for me. It's the best moment when you're in a studio, you find something incredible, you really just get the way you want to be.
Norton Owen: That’s it for this episode of PillowVoices. Thank you for joining us today. On behalf of Jacob’s Pillow we look forward to sharing more dance with you through the films, essays, and podcasts at DanceInteractive.jacobspillow.org and of course through live experiences during our Festival and throughout the year. Special thanks to the National Endowment for the Arts for helping launch this podcast series. Please subscribe to PillowVoices wherever you get your podcasts and visit us soon, either online or onsite.