Virginia Johnson of Dance Theatre of Harlem and Misty Copeland of American Ballet Theatre discuss their own training, the universality of performing classical ballets, the responsibilities of role models before and after the emergence of social media, and how dance skills can prepare young people for careers beyond the stage. Recorded during a 2014 PillowTalk moderated by Maura Keefe.
[Music begins, composed by J.S. Bach, performed by Jess Meeker]
Norton Owen: Welcome to PillowVoices, a production of Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival, with content from the Pillow archives. I'm Norton Owen, the Pillow's Historian and Founding Director of Preservation. It's my honor to introduce this episode based on a 2014 PillowTalk entitled “Black Ballerinas: What’s New?” That title ends with a question mark but there is no question that Virginia Johnson of Dance Theatre of Harlem and Misty Copeland of American Ballet Theatre are uniquely qualified to address this topic. Led by Pillow scholar Maure Keefe, they discuss the universality of performing classical ballets, their own training, the responsibilities of role models before and after the emergence of social media, and how dance skills can prepare young people for careers beyond the stage.
Maura Keefe: From the first season that Ted Shawn presented dance companies in his theater, back in 1942, dancers from all dance forms from all around the world of all races and nationalities have danced in the theaters here. It is no surprise then that given his interest in supporting the work of intriguing emerging companies, that in 1970 Dance Theater of Harlem gave its first performances for a paying audience here at Jacob's Pillow. It is my privilege to introduce a dancer from that inaugural performance and so much more. Virginia Johnson is a founding member of Dance Theater of Harlem. She's revered as one of the most beloved ballerinas, not just of DTH, but of late twentieth-century dance. Since retiring from the stage, she served as the founding editor of Pointe magazine and she's the current Artistic Director of Dance Theater of Harlem.
Thank you for being here.
[audience applauds]
Virginia Johnson: Thank you, Maura. It's a pleasure.
Maura Keefe: Thank you.
In 2007, Misty Copeland became the third ever, and first in two decades, African American soloist, female soloist with American Ballet Theater. She has danced with Prince, has been a guest judge on So You Think You Can Dance, has been inducted into the Boys and Girls Club Hall of Fame and her memoir, Life in Motion: An Unlikely Ballerina, came out this year.
Thank you for being here, Misty Copeland.
[audience applauds]
Misty Copeland: Thank you.
Maura Keefe: I, I wanna just start by talking about how it is that you've discovered ballet. Virginia, maybe we'll just start with you. What was it that drew you to ballet as a dance form?
Virginia Johnson: I grew up in Washington, DC, and my mother had a very good friend, uh, Therrell Smith, who had fallen in love with ballet and had decided that she wanted to be a ballerina. She was, uh, this is the 19 oh, 1940s. She couldn't find, um, any place to anywhere that she could study. No one would teach her because she's African American. Fortunately her father was a doctor and she could afford to go to Paris. And she studied with Mathilde Kschessinska in Paris and she came back and she opened her, her dance school. And my mother, wanting to support her friend, sent off her two daughters to study with Therrell. And, uh, and, and I fell in love with it right away.
Misty Copeland: I took my first ballet class at 13 on a basketball court in San Pedro, California. It was a free ballet class being taught to find kind of undiscovered talent, I guess, in underprivileged communities. I was very young, and I was really pushed into taking this ballet class. It's not something that I decided to do. I knew that I wanted to move. And I had auditioned for the dance team at my public school. And they made me captain of the drill team. So I was moving around to Mariah Carey songs. And, um, and the, the woman in charge of the drill team saw my body and what it was capable of with just the little bit that she was teaching me. So she was the one that suggested I take the ballet class. I was already a member of the Boys and Girls Club. And I sat on the bleachers in the, of the basketball court in the gym, for weeks and was finally pulled onto the court. I was so shy and terrified of trying anything new. So it definitely was, I was pushed into doing it. The decision to, uh really commit to it was made probably within the first month. The teacher knew that I had an extreme gift and um, I had to say I was committing to this so that she could say, okay, this is it. I'm putting all my focus on you for these years because I think you can go on to be a professional. So it all happened within a couple of months. So ballet was, it was all new kind of thrown at me and I, I trained intensely for four years before I joined American Ballet Theater.
Virginia Johnson: That’s just impossible. [audience laughs]
Maura Keefe: Virginia, maybe you could say, say why that, why for you knowing how the more, the more typical path…
Virginia Johnson: The more typical path, you know, the, the mantra when I was coming up as a dancer was 10 years to make the dancer, 10 years to make the star. You know, so at least it takes, it takes 10 years except for exceptional, [Keefe: I know] [audience laughs] all the details, all that, to get command, the kind of control and understand the vocabulary and get all of the, the refinements that are, I mean, that's what's beautiful about ballet. It's a highly refined art form, and so it's, to be able to do it in four years is, there isn't even a word for that.
Misty Copeland: I, I don't think I, I think I was faking it and I, um, I, I, I always say, you know, not until I've been with American Ballet Theater for 13 years now, and I feel like within the past three years, I really feel like I understand what I'm doing. Um, so it, there are no shortcuts and it does take all of that time to really become a dancer and to understand all of the nuances. But I had the physique and I understood how to imitate what I saw in front of me [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. So that's why I say I feel like I was just kind of faking it up until this point.
Maura Keefe: So, but so once you, once you got in the, um, in the very first, uh, ballet classes you were taking, then you started to study what ballerinas looked like [Copeland: Yes]. So not just who you were seeing, but, but really getting to watch people on, on videos and that kind of thing. What about that, of viewing dancers became something for you to emulate different from whom you were meeting in the studio where…
Misty Copeland: Um, I don't think I really understood until I became a professional, what it was to be an African American ballerina or to be a, a, an African American dancer. I didn't understand. I was looking at dancers, um, on videos. And they were mostly from American Ballet Theater. So, uh, I'd never really seen a Black ballerina before I, uh, became a professional and moved out to New York City and, discovered people like Virginia and Virginia was great to me from the beginning, um, just kind of being there as a mentor and, it was kind of a big shock, realizing I'd been a part of the. Ballet world for such a short period of time. And that's when I entered ABT, a company of 80 dancers. And I was the only African American woman. Um, and that was kind of when it all hit me and that's when I was like, oh my gosh, who else is out there? [Keefe: Hmm] And I wanted to do so much research and, and understand our history within the ballet world.
Maura Keefe: So those early sort of people you were emulating or watching on TV were just, you just were identifying with them being great dancers.
Misty Copeland: Yes.
Maura Keefe: And that's what you were interested in?
Misty Copeland: Yes.
Maura Keefe: And Virginia, for, for you, when you were, when you were coming up as a dancer, who were you looking at? Who were you wanting to sort of like, that's a great dancer, I wanna move like her.
Virginia Johnson: Sure. Um, you know, I think that's a really interesting question because I think for me, um, it was the sensation of dancing myself that made me love it [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Um, and the idea of, um, wanting to emulate another dancer out there was not as important to me as the experience of, you know, making this art form perfect in my body. [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Uh, certainly um, I'm of the era of Margo Fonteyn and Maya Plisetskaya. Those were amazing dancers. We didn't have the benefit of DVDs or DVRs, or whatever [Keefe: YouTube]. Video did not exist. Oh my God, I'm so old. So, so there were not as many opportunities to actually see these people [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Um, I remember definitely seeing Margo Fonteyn perform live with Nureyev at Uline Arena in Washington, DC and when the Bolshoi came, Plisetskaya. So you didn't have the chance to study people right at a distance [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. So it was really much more the experience of what you're doing and this ideal that you're trying to approach [Keefe: Mm-hmm] uh, because I think that was the thing that, that seduced me about ballet was the, the sense of an ideal.
Maura Keefe: And you talk about that in your book also, this ideal, uh, of, of perfection. That you're always, always, always, always working to attain something. And can you talk a little bit about, you know, you go in that you're 13 years old and this idea of perfection. How, how quickly did you realize there's a difference between like, I think I've got it and then. The more you learn, the more you realize, oh, I'm, I'm…
Misty Copeland: I definitely hadn't grasped that when I first [Keefe: Mm-hmm] when I was training before I became a professional Um I was so eager and hungry to learn everything there was about ballet. So every day that I went into the, to the studio, I was just like, oh my God, what else is there to learn? I was so excited. I wasn't necessarily striving for perfection, I was just trying to understand, know all of the vocabulary, you know, what the steps were. That was what I was doing. Um, as a professional. And once you become an artist, I think that's when that comes into play, that you're constantly, um, trying to reach this goal in, in your head and in your body of what you think perfection is. And it never happens, but it keeps you, it keeps things interesting and it keeps you pushing every day.
Maura Keefe: So the, uh, the thing that is striking to me, um, about the program we're seeing Dance Theater of Harlem do this week is we're seeing a, a, a range of what ballet can be in the 21st century. I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit, um about the difference for you as dancers first, and then I'm gonna ask you as artistic director between dancing the, the, the great classical roles and dancing more contemporary work. I mean, Misty, some of your first roles were in some, you were really getting cast more towards contemporary pieces at first, with ABT, right?
Misty Copeland: Yeah. I think that as a young dancer, um, it's easier to kind of find your voice and identify, um, when you're in a smaller cast. And when you're doing movement that most likely might be created on you when it comes to the contemporary work. So I think for me, as a young dancer joining ABT, in a company of 80 dancers, you just don't get the opportunity right away to, to learn Juliet or [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. You know, it, it takes time that you have to kind of pay your dues and develop yourself as a dancer and do all of the classics, but in the contemporary works, it was my own. And I think that they saw something in me that I was able to create this unique style in the way I was moving and taking on the choreographer's choreography. Um, so it's, it's very different. It's like night and day.
Maura Keefe: So you're talking about the difference between learning repertory versus being in the studio with the artist just making new work
Misty Copeland: Yeah when you're doing a classical ballet. I mean, that part and that those roles have been done since it was created. It’s been hundreds of years and you're constantly trying to, um, remake this idea of whoever it was created on, up to the smallest details. That's why you have to have people come in and coach you and teach you exactly what they think the idea of this character was supposed to be. So you don't have that same freedom in the classics um, to kind of make it completely your own. I think as a younger dancer, it's easier to do that in the contemporary works. I think once you understand and you're an artist, you can, you can play with things and make it your own, while staying true to the classic (Keefe: Mm-hmm) choreography,
Maura Keefe: Virginia, for you right from the beginning, Dance Theater of Harlem has had such diversity in the repertory [Johnson: Mm-hmm]. Um, so did you have a, did you have, uh, an inclination towards a certain kind of role you preferred to dance?
Virginia Johnson: Uh, yeah, I definitely like to tell stories [Keefe: Uhhuh], I, I like the narrative works [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Um, but you know, the thing that was, was really wonderful about, uh, the rep at DTH from the beginning. You know, you are, you're yourself all the time, but then you get to dance this choreography and you get to dance that famous work, or you get to dance something that's creative. And then you get to be a different person. You get to keep, um, expanding what it is, ways that you can move, um, how you understand what it is that you're doing. You, uh, it's, it's like you have multiple personalities. And when you have a, you have a, an evening performance and you have three, three ballets, and you can be three completely different people and enter three completely different universes and make each one of them fully committed and as real and as true as possible [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. And that challenge of being able to, to change yourself from one to the other was the most fun.
Maura Keefe: And so, as artistic director, is that something that you, um, are really interested in the dancers and the audience taking a journey with of, of, of those, I mean, we see three completely different, uh, works on, on the program this afternoon here.
Virginia Johnson: You know, I really think that this art form of ballet is, is a magnificent art form and that it, it can say so many different things. And to me, with Dance Theatre of Harlem, I think it's important for us to keep expanding people's understanding of what is possible in ballet. So yes, it is a matter of, of making a program that has things that are not very much the same, so that you come into the theater and you think you're gonna see one thing and you see something that is not at all what you expected, but then you start to see something in it, because I, I really want people to think about ballet as a living art form [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. It's, it has a amazing, amazing past the, the traditions, the, the legacy that's been passed forward to us is beautiful and needs to be maintained and kept alive. But it didn't stop then. [Keefe: Right?] It keeps moving forward. It keeps moving forward. And even now, here we are, what is this year? 2015? Not quite, but now we are experiencing ourselves in this world. And, and ballet can talk about that too.
Maura Keefe: I was thinking how, um, you just said you're always yourself in these roles and I, I feel like, um, that's something I'm interested in. 'cause, uh, uh, Misty, you talk about in, uh, your book, the moment when you decide, uh, you're, you're gonna play, uh, the Puss- in-Boots character and _Sleeping Beaut_y in this class, in this classic, uh, role. And that, that all of a sudden you decide that you don't wanna be the way this has always been. And maybe you could just tell that anecdote.
Misty Copeland: Um, you know, African Americans uh, within the ballet world have this history as, I mean beyond my generation of, you know, I think of Raven Wilkinson and Janet Collins who are told to, uh, make their skin lighter in order to fit in with the court de ballet. Um, and it's definitely not that, but it's still that idea that I think is so ingrained in, in the way ballet dancers think. Um, and the people that continue to continue, uh, this, the next generations of artistic directors and things like that, it's still ingrained in us that we see ballerinas as white. Um, anyways, I've played many roles of different animals where I'm always painted white. Um, throughout the history of me being within the company and, um, I, you know, it got to the point where I was, I was very comfortable with the makeup people and, and my place within the company. And I was being painted white again to do the role of Puss-in-Boots and Sleeping Beauty, um, and jokes were made um, here and there that I think were just ignorant, not meant to hurt me, just that, oh, I'm always painted white, the one Black girl in the company. Um, so I turned to the makeup artist and I just said, why can't I be a brown cat? And she was like, okay [audience laughs]. And then she painted me brown. But there was just something deeper that I felt that it was like, oh, well, I guess I, I should have said that a long time ago, but it made me feel very different.
Maura Keefe: Mm. And, and do you, so do you think it was no big deal for her?
Misty Copeland: I don't know if she was quite aware of [Keefe: Mm-hmm] why? I mean, she was told to paint me white [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. I don't know if she, but, um. I don't know. There's just a deeper meaning, I think when people that they might not even be aware of, to see a brown cat up there, to see a brown woman on the stage. There are people in the audience that are going to relate to seeing themselves up there.
Maura Keefe: Mm-hmm. Virginia, I remember, um, you telling me once a story about, uh, I think you were on European tour in the early days of Dance Theater of Harlem and, and, and that you had been wearing pink shoes.
Virginia Johnson: Pink tights. And pink shoes. Yeah, absolutely.
Maura Keefe: Maybe…I mean, it feels like it's a related kind of story.
Virginia Johnson: It is, absolutely. Um, so when Dance Theater of Harlem came together, when we performed here in 1970, we were, um, wearing pink tights and pink pointe shoes because that's the convention. It's, it's the convention, it's the way people expect ballet to look. But, you know, pink tights and pink pointe shoes were, were designed to match the skin tone of the people who were wearing them. You know, this European art form, uh, it was to create a sense of line. The complete body is making the same statement. Uh, so we, uh, we had a, a really fantastic um, run, uh, at Sadler's Wells, uh, think it must have been 1973 or something. Not good at dates. Uh, we had 113% attendance. I mean, we were sold out to the rafters and it was so fantastic because people hadn't really seen, uh, ballet this way. And that's what Arthur Mitchell was trying to get people to do [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. He wanted people to see ballet in a new way, so people were thrilled. We had a wonderful tour of New York. We went to 89 cities I felt like. But because we had been so successful, they brought us back to London for another week at Sadler's Wells. And, and as we traveled through Europe, Arthur Mitchell started, you know, looking at these dancers on the stage and looking at what is this? You know, he's always trying to make us look the very best. The most magnificent company. This is early, you know, we are, we are splibs. We're learning how to do this and putting it together, and so it, I don't know whether somebody talked to him or whether he had the idea himself, but he looked at all those many huge dancers of color because we were many different complexions on the stage. He says, you know, why are we wearing pink tights? What are we, what are we looking like that for? Let's make a line that goes from the tip, tip of our fingers down to the tip of our toes that is one statement. And so, you know, much scrambling around and much dying of tights and figuring out how to make the shoes the right color. But we came back to Sadler’s Wells and we had flesh-toned tights and flesh-toned shoes, and it was, it was like a loud click. That's right. That's the way it should look. Because it really is about making the body look the most wonderful. But it's also about who are these dancers? It's not erasing ourselves, you know, which a lot of ballet is about erasing the individual and making you fit into a unified whole. It's about bringing who you are forward.
Maura Keefe: Mm-hmm. Another thing I was thinking about is that, so you, you're who you are in the roles and then, and seeing your bodies on stage is already making a different kind of meaning, but both of you have been in productions where the stories themselves are, are different. So the Chocolate Nutcracker, the, uh, the Debbie Allen, uh, work that you did in Los Angeles or Creole Giselle, which I think of as, as one of your great, uh, parts, could you talk a little bit about what it's like to, to, uh to dance a story that feels like, well, I'm not telling a story of some, somebody that has no relationship to my, to my family.
Virginia Johnson: Oh, I, I don't see those stories that way. I think that, I think the great ballets are universal stories [Copeland: I agree]. And it's not, you're not, you're not becoming something other than who you are and what you get to do when you're dancing these things. Coppélia was just amazing because you were, you were Misty and Coppélia at the same time. It was not like you had to put on some other thing. You know, it isn't that you are becoming something other at all by being honest in your true self telling this particular story, then it works. It doesn't, you're not betraying yourself.
Maura Keefe: You don't feel so then, so you would've been just as happy, uh, in Giselle as Creole Giselle.
Virginia Johnson: Yeah.
Maura Keefe: Yeah.
Virginia Johnson: Absolutely. Or, or Rodeo, uh, or you know, any, any of those. Because that's the great thing when you're a dancer, [Keefe: Uhhuh], you get to inhabit roles and become those people with your own truth.
Maura Keefe: Mm-hmm. So, Misty how about for you, so you did, you did the Nutcracker in Los Angeles and you've done the Nutcracker at, in, in Brooklyn. Maybe you could just say something about those different productions.
Misty Copeland: Well, I completely agree and, and I think that's why um, we deserve as African Americans, as minorities to be a part of the ballet world because I always say like Lauren Anderson said, no, no one is a sugar plum fairy. Like we weren't born sugar plum fairies were portraying a role and I think that's what we are doing as ballet dancers. So why do you have to fit this European white, you know, mold of what a dancer is when we're playing characters. Um, so for me, you know, it. It's amazing to just become something and put in the work to understand the character and the role that you're playing and it's so much fun. Um, but for me, with doing something like, um The Chocolate Nutcracker, it was more about, for the first time, being surrounded by people who looked like me. And I think that was the, the comfort that I felt. It wasn't about being in a Black production, but that I'd never seen so many dancers that looked like me. And there's something that you feel inside that I think most of the ballet audience feel all the time because they see themselves up there. And, and it's very innate [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. But there's something that's so special when you're surrounded by people that you feel you connect with.
Maura Keefe: Right. So, so Virginia, your experience, you would've had that in Dance Theater of Harlem with people that were, you know, that maybe felt like they are a minority in my community here in a way that that, uh, Misty's not necessarily feeling yet at, at American Ballet Theater?
Virginia Johnson: Yeah. You know, it's a really interesting thing, and I don't know whether it's true for you, um, Misty or not, but, but when I was a young dancer and I was studying, um, uh, in Washington, uh, I was just so very much in love with this idea of being a ballerina.. You know, that was my complete thing. And I didn't really have any sense of. What color I was or what color the people were around me. I was a dancer, I was a student, I was aspiring to this art form. Um, you know, it was later on that people had to point out to me that, oh, uh, excuse me, um, you're Black, you know, and, and you must feel uncomfortable here. Uh, which was a surprising thing to me because I didn't feel at all uncomfortable. I identified with the notion of being a ballerina.. And, you know, the, the whatever color skin was, that was some outside perception.
Maura Keefe: I mean, you talk about that in your book about that sort of the naivete that maybe protected you when you.
Misty Copeland: Yeah. I had the same experience where, um, you know, just coming from the background that I came from and, and growing up in a lot of chaos and not coming from money and, and not being in the best neighborhoods growing up, ballet was something that I felt like I was finally a part of something, a part of this family, um, that had structure and history and tradition that I, that's what I fell in love with. And I never thought about my skin color. I never felt any different. I thought I was a ballerina. Um, and it wasn't until I became a professional the same story that you have, that someone pointed it out to me, you do realize that you're the only Black woman here. And it was like, oh, I guess I am. And that's when I started to really think about things. But I think it's, it was important that that was brought to me because I understand what it is to have a voice, um, as a Black woman to. Uh, get a conversation started about, um, the fact that we aren't on the stages in companies like ABT and the Royal and Bolshoi and Kirov and New York City Ballet.
Virginia Johnson: Name them all. Oh, yeah.
Maura Keefe: Misty You said in an interview on the, uh. The blog Hairpin, you said “people aren't trying to put diversity on the stage to better their companies or brands. The ballet world could care less. They have survived in this bubble forever. It really doesn't affect their audiences whether or not there's a Black woman on stage.” So, so what you're saying, it's like, it's not like there's some big PR, you know, push for affirmative action in the ballet world and that…
Misty Copeland: It's, I think that that's coming, maybe not, not in that way. I think that, um, it's the conversation has gone beyond the ballet world. And so I think that, um, they're being forced to make change at this point. But yes, they've survived in the, the very comfortable way that they have. And um, and it hasn't been an issue in the past that there aren't Black women on the stage. Um, and the audiences are still coming and paying. They're not outside, you know, boycotting. Like there's no Black women, we're not coming in. None of that's happening. So yes, we've lived in this very comfortable, the ballet world has lived in this very comfortable place and no need for change. But I think that, um the ballet world is such a niche market and it's so small and removed that um, they haven't had to address it. And I feel like it's kind of become this bigger conversation. And now the world's looking at the ballet world, I think.
Maura Keefe: Do you think Virginia, when, when you were here in 1970 or you know, the early days of the company that we'd still be having this conversation?
Virginia Johnson: Uh, no, I really didn't think that, uh, 45 years ago, 45 years later, we would still be, um, talking about this in this way. And, but as, as Misty says, you know, ballet is, is this little niche, it's this little bubble. It's a very special little universe. But you know what? The world is leaving that universe behind and if the universe doesn't open itself up and really connect to the present day in so many ways, it won't be around anymore. You know? It is, it is really vital that we look at what's happening in this world. In this is an incredibly diverse multicultural country. You know, people are very used to sharing time with each other, different, um, different cultures, different races, different, it's different ways of being in the world. We're much closer to that. We're not as isolated as we used to be. This group over there and that group of them over there. But, you know, the arts are supposed to be the thing that leads us forward. And so it really is important for ballet to start understanding that it's not just about the conventions of the past, but really about being a leader, about making a world of the future.
Maura Keefe: So you, um, told the story of The New York Times, uh, when that, when you were doing the auditions for the company, um, last year, and that you were, that you were surprised by how few African American ballet dancers showed up for the audition, um, when you were looking to to, to start the full company again. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Virginia Johnson: Sure. You know, um. I, I, uh, Dance Theater of Harlem, uh, was went on hiatus in 2004. Uh, and so the company that is performing here now is actually in its second year. Uh, it is a, a new Dance Theater of Harlem. Uh, we, um, we were looking for, we had, uh, uh, let's see, how, what's the best way to do this? Uh, we set out on a national tour to find dancers for the new Dance Theater of Harlem Company. Uh, and we would have 75 people. We would have 110 people, we would have 50 people come to the audition because they were dancers who wanted to be part of Dance Theater of Harlem. The unfortunate thing was that so few of them were dancers of color, and I really felt that the eight years that Dance Theater of Harlem had not been on the stage was a real, um, falling off of being able to look on the stage. And see somebody who looked like you. [Keefe: Mm-hmm] who, who gave you the idea that I do belong in this world. And there was, I, I think it also was throughout the classrooms that there were people, there were teachers who would say to, as they said to me, oh my dear, you're such a good dancer. You should be a modern dancer because there are no ballet companies that are gonna hire you. So I think there's a generation of dancers who were actually got who, who should be ballet dancers now who should have been auditioning for Dance Theater of Harlem in 2012. But, but did not because they were encouraged to go somewhere else because people couldn't see them literally…Couldn't see them having a career in a ballet company. [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Uh, so much work to be done, but yes. We are talking about it like crazy now. People used to talk about it like, oh boy, that's… or people would be really mad, but you know, people are actually going, people call me up and they say, I need some dancers from my company. Can you send some over? So the idea is starting to click for whatever reason, whether it's because their boards are saying we need to have a more diverse company, or because they really, in their hearts, believe that diversity is the answer for vitality.
Maura Keefe: There's a, there's a, a cover story, uh, in this month's, uh, Pointe magazine. Misty is a cover girl on it, along with Ebony Williams of Cedar Lake and Ashley Murphy of, uh, Dance Theater of Harlem. And you talk about how it's not,iIt's not just about race, it's about class. And, and Misty, maybe you could say something about that because part of, part of your experience wasn't that you, it's just that you didn't have access 'cause you didn't have parents who were, had extra money to pay to send you to the local studio. Maybe you could talk about it as a class issue and not just a race issue.
Misty Copeland: Yeah. I think that's a huge part of why, um, a lot of minorities are not even there in the pool of dancers for professional companies to choose from because they don't have the access to it. Um, and class and, and money and all of those things come into play as well as what we look like [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Um, so, you know, I just feel like the ballet world has to be completely restructured in, in the way that we, um hire teachers for our schools and companies, the artistic staff, the board of directors, I think has to represent a diverse, um, diversity as well as the dancers and the audience. But I think it's, you know, Project Plié, the diversity initiative with the American Ballet Theater. Um, that's one of the goals is to be able to, in conjunction with the Boys and Girls Club, since that's where I took my first ballet class, is to try and get affordable classes. Um, teachers trained in the A BT, uh, certified in ABT’s curriculum, um, to teach these students at places like a Boys and Girls Club in different communities and, 'cause I think that's a huge part of it, is just giving them, you know, so many African Americans who aren't exposed to it from a young age. Then they end up starting when they're 13 years old, 17 years old, and they just don't have the same, uh, chance. Because they don't have the right training from early enough to get into a top company.
Maura Keefe: And that's always been a part of Dance Theater of Harlem's mission is the, the educational piece of it. And maybe you could talk about that.
Virginia Johnson: Sure. Um, Arthur Mitchell started with a school. Um, he wanted to, he didn't wanna make dancers. He wanted to give the young people in his hometown neighborhood of Harlem, uh, a better option in life. And he realized that by studying a classical art form, by studying classical ballet, you get skills that are valuable that will give you a different future than the poor education that was part of it. So his idea was really to, um, to elevate the young people in this community and give them more choices. Um, we still have a, a huge, um, arts education program because it, we, we want to expose as many young people to the possibilities of this art form as possible. And of course, we have a school that, that, uh, that trains young people, um, uh, very seriously, but also recreationally [Keefe: Mm-hmm] to be, um, to be dancers. But, you know, I wanna add one more point. And I, it's something that, that always rankles. I think they're mosquitoes here. That always rankles me because, you know what? All, all African Americans aren't poor, and all of us don't need to have, uh, extra help to, to pay for things [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. But you know, why, why are not, why are our, our more wealthy, more affluent African Americans not sending their little daughters off to ballet school? Well, they do, but at a certain point, at a certain age. They want them to be doctors and lawyers [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. They don't want them to be starving artists [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. They don't want them to have to be in, in the kind of world that, you know, it's, it's a very precarious lifestyle, being a dancer. And so if you've been able to prepare yourself for this, uh, better life, then you want them to have a better life. Um, I think there's a really missed connection though, because I think that we want, when you look at an audience, uh, when you go to the MET or you go to, to, I'm gonna call it the State Theater [Keefe: Mm-hmm] , it's, it's not [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Um. It's not a mixed audience. So it's not just that there, there are no dancers of color on the stage. The audience is pretty lily white too [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. So there's, there's work to be done about what the, the perception of what this art form is [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. And how people relate to it. And I think that if we, um, don't just put the focus on making sure that we make a diversity happen on the stage, but that we actually increase the diversity in the audience, that we can make a much bigger change happen faster.
Maura Keefe: I see. This seems like something that, uh, has really been part of your career. I mean, making the, um the choice to, to perform on stage with Prince. And so people are seeing ballet in a very different kind of setting. Maybe people who go to ballet, maybe who don't, I mean, whatever the audience overlap is between a, a Prince concert and, and an ABT audience. But the, but, but, but you're taking it out of, you're taking it out of that sort of rarefied world [Copeland: Mm-hmm]. And, and you've had some, some people concerned about that.
Misty Copeland: Um, yeah, not necessarily to me. That conversation's never been had with me to my face. Um, but I, I do read things [audience laughs]. Um, but yeah, that's been a big thing for me. I think it was just extremely frustrating for me to be a part of a company and to feel so alone and to feel like, what am I doing here? Is it really worth it to, um, not be heard? Like, why am I here? And so it was so important for me to like express all that I was feeling and not to just say, oh, this place is so bad. Like, why would I stay with a company that I thought, you know, wasn't a great company, but I just wanted people to understand the experience of a lot of minorities within, uh, you know, large ballet companies. Um, but, but having opportunities to bring ballet outside of the ballet world was, yes, that's what I've always wanted to do.. And I feel like I was very careful about those choices. And saying yes to certain artists, um, that I felt were going to, um, respect the art form.
Maura Keefe: Mm-hmm. So, and I think this is, uh, connected in to earlier just sort of the access question about how we didn't have videos to watch when, when we were growing up, but, but you are very active on social media. Um, and, and so is Dance Theater of Harlem, and it's, I mean, it's a, it is a new world for how dancers and dance companies, uh, reach audiences in ways that even when you were growing up were, were, we didn't even think about the possibility.
So could you talk about how, how you've been, um, deliberate about, about reaching out to, to fans who maybe can't come and see you in New York, maybe they're living in Ohio or wherever, and, and how you feel that's part of your kind of outreach.
Misty Copeland: Yeah, it's definitely, I feel like I'm a new generation and a new face of what ballet is and, and the direction ballet should be going. And, um, it's so simple through social media how many people you can reach [Keefe: Mm-hmm] that are so far away. And, and you know, that I've, it's amazing to me today. To this day when I meet people who say, um, they're like, oh, I come to the ballet all the time now, but the first time I saw you was at Madison Square Garden with Prince. And it's like, that's incredible to me. Um, but those are the people that are, they're listening now because you're, they're seeing you in a different venue. They're seeing you in a different outlet. Um, and it's just so easy to reach them, and it's just incredible. So I try and do as much as I can.
Maura Keefe: Virginia, what about, what about Dancer of Harlem? I mean, that's, it's a new thing that you have had to, as artistic director start to think about, like, oh, it's not just the press circuit and the whatever. It's this whole other thing that you have to or somebody that you're working with has to, to be on top of.
Virginia Johnson: Absolutely. And I'm, I'm, I'm pretty bad at it actually, but we have a, a totally amazing, um, former dancer with a company, Judy Tyrus, who is passionate about social media. And so she's always making connections and she's always saying, you gotta get on there, you gotta make some comments. And I'm, I'm bad. I'm, I haven't done it yet, but, but, but the idea that that Dance Theater of Harlem has, uh, a conversation with a broad audience and, and make sure that the new things that we're doing, uh, that we're, uh, uh, our dancers are, are tweeting and, and Facebooking and all that. And so, and it's a, it's a great thing. Um, I just have to catch up.
Maura Keefe: Or not, maybe, maybe you don't have to do that, but, but it's, I mean, it's a, a kind of a very different idea from the sort of rarefied ballerina on stage.
Virginia Johnson: Very different. And thank goodness. What do we need that for?
Maura Keefe: So, um. I was thinking also about, uh, I sort of even hate to say this with a microphone on, but there's this long, this long standing notion of the, the dumb dancer. No matter how many times evidence is presented that dancers aren't but Misty, you talk about your brother, your smart brother calling you that saying dancers don't use their brains. But you, you both are writers. You were, you were a founding editor of a magazine. You've written a book. Um, could you talk about the sort of the um, how it is that you are communicating not just with your bodies when you're dancing, but how it is that you are entering the conversation in different ways and why that's important to you as artists?
Virginia Johnson: Okay. Um, you know, I think that dance is about ideas. Uh, I, I went on to journalism after I stopped dancing because I really felt that what I was doing as a dancer was communicating. Uh, and I think that that that's the purpose. That's, that's why we are doing it. Um, I had a really amazing experience at Pointe. It was a fantastic, uh, way to learn a lot about the world. But one of the things I learned most, the things that, that, that really shocked me was how amazing dancers are, um, that. They are, the, the image of the dumb dancer is, is just bad PR. Uh, dancers are such focused, committed, passionate, inquisitive people who want to make something happen and put together elements that are very disparate to bring them together and make it happen in emotion, a moment of movement on stage. So I think of, of, you know nuclear physicists. I have tremendous respect for them. Dancers I have even more.
Maura Keefe: Mm-hmm. And, and Misty for you, I mean, it's so clear from reading your book that journaling has been such an important part of, of your life and, and sort of keeping having a conversation with yourself if there's nobody else to be sharing those thoughts with. Can you talk about how that, that writing process turned into a book for you?
Misty Copeland: Well, beyond the writing, because when I, before I danced, there's no way in the world. I think I could have ever written a book [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. I think that something so much bigger than, you know, where I'm at right now is the person that dance has made me, and it's taught me to communicate, which is exactly what you're saying. And it's given me skills that I don't think I ever could have developed in any other art form in any other, you know, thing in the world. And to try and describe the type of child I was to now be able to stand up and speak in front of hundreds of people is really incredible. And, um, yes, dancers I think are some of the most intelligent people [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. We understand how to use every single part of our being [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. And to make it something beautiful. And I always say that's why so many universities are so quick to give full scholarships to dancers who maybe didn't even graduate. From an actual high school that have their GED because they know they're going to graduate probably at the top of their class and go all the way through.
Maura Keefe: Oh, certainly gonna be among the most disciplined of students. That's certainly something. So, um, both of you have commented that you think of yourselves as dancers and that it's, it was sort of somebody, I mean, not that you didn't know, but that somebody else is saying to you, you notice you're the only Black dancer here. But you also serve as role models, not just as, as ballerinas, but Misty. You say in your book, you know, this is for the little you, it's like a theme in your book. It's for the little brown girls out there. Can you talk about that, sort of like the best answer, but also role models for young women of color?
Misty Copeland: It's hard to, um, put that type of pressure on someone and. The, you know, African American ballerinas that I know personally, um, or even male dancers that I know. I don't think it's their, like, that it's something that they should have to be [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Um, I think it's a choice that they should be able to make [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. And some of them just wanna be dancers and enjoy that and not have to feel the weight of the world on their shoulders. Like, you know, you're carrying a race, everyone's watching you because you're the only one [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Um, but it happened very naturally for me. I was never asked to be that person. Um, I wanted to share my experiences [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. I couldn't, once I was developing these skills to communicate, I couldn't wait to share, you know, with, um, dancers that could relate to me and that I felt like I wanted to give them tools to be able to survive the next generation. Um, so it's just happened naturally and I'm happy to be a mentor, role model, but, um, I just think of, all these young dancers is like, I don't know, like my kids.
[audience laughs]
Virginia Johnson: Um, so, you know, I'm old enough, uh, close enough to segregation to have been a part, have been told that I had to represent my race [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. That anytime I was out there, anytime and people were looking at me and if I did something wrong, all Black people were condemned, you know? And so it was, it was a very much a mantra that that. I had as a young person, and it was a mantra that, that Arthur Mitchell, um, for that first company, he, he, he turned us inside out because he knew that people were looking at us with question marks and, and doubt and expectation that we were gonna be, um, loud and bad. So, so, so he, you know, there was a, a long period of time where we were, we had to bend over backwards to be extra. Not what you expect. Um, and I'm so delighted that we are in a world that people, when, as, as the company moved forward, and I saw young dancers come to be part of Dance Theater of Harlem and walk in the room and own the fact that they were ballet dancers and that there was no question about it, and that, that they were gonna go ahead and do this. You know, it was a marvel to me that it, it meant that Dance Theater was making a difference. Um, I think that yes, any, any one person just wants to be themselves. They don't wanna have to, to be the representative or bear the burden of, of whatever it is. But then on the other hand, you know, we all are here to move forward and if I have to help people understand something they don't understand, then I should do it [Keefe: Mm-hmm]. Um, you know, Misty has been an amazing mentor to so many young dancers, uh, because you know, when you're out there and you feel that very much a lone feeling. It's nice to know that there's somebody there who has been through it, who can tell you something, who can encourage you because you're not getting encouragement around. And so we all have a responsibility to help move forward.
[Music begins, composed and performed by Jess Meeker]
Norton Owen: That’s it for this episode of PillowVoices. Thank you for joining us today. On behalf of Jacob’s Pillow we look forward to sharing more dance with you through the films, essays, and podcasts at DanceInteractive.jacobspillow.org and of course through live experiences during our Festival and throughout the year. Special thanks to the National Endowment for the Arts for helping launch this podcast series. Please subscribe to PillowVoices wherever you get your podcasts and visit us soon, either online or onsite.